How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Battlefront.com]

7 minutes ago, G.I. Joe said:

Since monuments came up again, this has got to be the best response to a Lenin statue ever...

Ukraine: Lenin statue given Darth Vader makeover - BBC News

Ah, that's an oldie but goodie!

Visiting BBC to check that out showed me this OpEd that was just posted.  It talks about Russia only having various options for how it chooses to be defeated.  Gave it a quick read and looks pretty solid:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61348287

Steve

[Aragorn2002]

2 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

It's something the Ukrainian army may do. Mmmm Kursk is not too far away lol .

Kind of strange to see all those place names of ww2 come by again, don't you think? I was actually playing panzer Campaigns Kiev when all of this started. 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Kind of strange to see all those place names of ww2 come by again, don't you think? I was actually playing panzer Campaigns Kiev when all of this started. 

Look how many similarities there are between this battle and the Kursk battle of 1943. The Austrian military drew this comparison. 

[Aragorn2002]

6 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Ah, that's an oldie but goodie!

Visiting BBC to check that out showed me this OpEd that was just posted.  It talks about Russia only having various options for how it chooses to be defeated.  Gave it a quick read and looks pretty solid:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61348287

Steve

Solid indeed. 'That's why it suits him to toy with the dangerous idea that Russia is facing a "Great Patriotic War 2.0" with the rest of Europe.' 

Tomorrow is going to be very interesting.

 

[TheVulture]

20 minutes ago, G.I. Joe said:

Since monuments came up again, this has got to be the best response to a Lenin statue ever...

Ukraine: Lenin statue given Darth Vader makeover - BBC News

Or my favourite Soviet war monument from Bulgaria:

Edited May 8, 2022 by TheVulture

[FancyCat]

 

[Aragorn2002]

4 minutes ago, FancyCat said:

 

Great timing!

[panzermartin]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Yep - they raped and pillaged the more and more as they moved westward into German territory.

Sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but the Red Army of 1945 was hardly an army of saints on white horses spreading freedom and justice wherever it went.

Not an army of saints by any means. But nobody will object that they had every right to do this in german territory as retaliation . And they actually spared the vast majority of people that had come to their land to ethnic cleanse them and make soap or purses from their skin. 

In this logic, we can say that the carefully planned colossal allied fire bombings of undefended german cities packed with refugees were more evil. But some people here will say for that, "you reap what you saw", while for the soviets they will say they were evil orcs and monsters. That's somewhat ironic and double standard. 

 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, panzermartin said:

That's somewhat ironic and double standard. 

Your sense of logic is beyond comprehension. Terror bombing and atrocities by ground forces prolong a war. The subjective motivation to be merciless is counterproductive. It is once again demonstrated by the defense of the steel works don't expect humane treatment from putin if you have the silly idea to surrender. The behaviour of Soviet forces reinforced the German will to resist and therefore prolonged the war as did the bombing of German cities. The argument I can do it because you can do it is refuted numerous times. The idea of taking away the will to fight is a lot more sophisticated than trying to mimic Ivan the Terrible. 

[Machor]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

all Southerners who fought for the Confederacy are, by definition, traitors

Steve,

OT, but honest question for a historian like yourself, coming from someone ignorant about the ACW, and without any personal stake in the history: I had read that Southerners were not traitors because, in the US system, their allegiance was first and foremost to their native State. What is your take on this?

Please don't ban me - It really is an honest question. 

P.S.: Should Ukraine ever retake Donbas, or even Crimea, the question would have relevance today.

[mosuri]

6 hours ago, akd said:

What Russia really needs right now is a new Beria:

 

You couldn't make this stuff up. The description of Beria at the end of the video is priceless.

[panzermartin]

21 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Your sense of logic is beyond comprehension. Terror bombing and atrocities by ground forces prolong a war. The subjective motivation to be merciless is counterproductive. It is once again demonstrated by the defense of the steel works don't expect humane treatment from putin if you have the silly idea to surrender. The behaviour of Soviet forces reinforced the German will to resist and therefore prolonged the war as did the bombing of German cities. The argument I can do it because you can do it is refuted numerous times. The idea of taking away the will to fight is a lot more sophisticated than trying to mimic Ivan the Terrible. 

I'm sorry I don't understand the argument. It seems at least you agree that both fire bombing of civilians and mass raping were equally evil and pointless for ending war ? We don't disagree here. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by panzermartin

[Aragorn2002]

1 hour ago, mosuri said:

You couldn't make this stuff up. The description of Beria at the end of the video is priceless.

Lost for words...'never met someone as humane as Beria'...where do they find these idiots?

Edited May 8, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, panzermartin said:

I'm sorry I don't understand the argument.

You excused the behaviour of Soviet forces because the allies carpet bombed German cities. From hindsight we can say both tactics are useless. Contrary to the west Russia has not learned anything from WW2. They flatten cities and target civilians with the theory it will undermine the Ukrainian will to fight. With their numbers a competent military would have won this special mission. It is a classic case fighting WW2 in 2022. WW2 the British bombed German cities first, the strategy worked because it diverted the Luftwaffe away from military targets. Had to Luftwaffe concentrated on the British radar stations and airbases the Battle of Britain might have ended differently. Churchill needed to increase the British will to fight in 1940. In this the Blitz served its purpose, a considerable number in the British parliament didn't rule out a negotiated settlement. 

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

where do they find these idiots?

The British had a tv-show. Some mothers do have them. 

[kraze]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:57 AM, panzermartin said:

I swear if I ever read again that the Red army was equally evil with the SS and the Wehrmacht that made my father starve as a kid and his friends getting killed while painting slogans on walls, I'm going to delete my account here. There was nothing evil with the T 34s rolling down the streets of Berlin in 1945....Their crew could have been Ukrainian, Polish, Czech... Too bad I once had fun making mods for CMBB. Some had crosses, some had red stars, noone was actually offended.

It's still a WW2 monument, not a stazi agent bust. 

Red army was equally evil to SS and Wehrmacht. In fact they were so equally evil - they started WW2 together as allies and fought in Poland as allies and even traded captured territories as allies, like it was an open lebensraum market.

Red army soldiers raped Polish and Finnish women, looted, tortured and mass murdered civilians in newly occupied cities and that was before they and their SS brothers had a falling out over who gets to occupy rest of Europe.

And when they did - Red army soldiers raped, looted and murdered not only in Poland (again), Czechoslovakia and Germany, but also in Ukraine and Belarus - because they couldn't give an F. Yes - Red Army was filled with such human filth that they committed war crimes against their own. In Ukraine alone Red army proceeded to kill 300.000 civilians in 1946, after the war was over. And during the war they committed countless war crimes resulting in the deaths of at least as many.

So if you think russians and their collaborators from previously occupied countries came to Germany to fight Nazi ideology - ask yourself a question why millions went to concentration camps and died there in the following 45 years of half of Europe being occupied by the glorious Red army.

Just because one barbaric army fought the other, equally barbaric army - doesn't make one of them the good guys. Real life is not a high fantasy book.

Edited May 8, 2022 by kraze

[FancyCat]

Adam Tooze argued that the Ruhr bombing campaign severely disrupted the German war economy, and had it been maintained instead of switching for other targets, cause a quicker end to the war.

Most of the Luftwaffe and air defense was forced to defend Germany rather than being used on the eastern or western fronts.

Sorry for bringing in something not directly related to the discussion but I find it mighty interesting how scholarship can shift how we see historical events, and how a idea that strategic bombing was useless is being revised once again.

[chuckdyke]

8 minutes ago, FancyCat said:

that strategic bombing was useless is being revised once again.

It was hardly surgical precision. Instead of a scalpel they used a meat cleaver. The ultimate was nuclear weapons over Japan. The theory was it would save 250000 US lives. 

[Huba]

1 hour ago, panzermartin said:

Not an army of saints by any means. But nobody will object that they had every right to do this in german territory as retaliation . And they actually spared the vast majority of people that had come to their land to ethnic cleanse them and make soap or purses from their skin. 

In this logic, we can say that the carefully planned colossal allied fire bombings of undefended german cities packed with refugees were more evil. But some people here will say for that, "you reap what you saw", while for the soviets they will say they were evil orcs and monsters. That's somewhat ironic and double standard. 

 

Allright, now look at them from Polish perspective - both armies came. to us to conquer, both engaged in atrocities that included systematic murder, deportations, ethnic cleansing etc. Germans were a bit worse in tgis regard, but really it was like a difference between  plague and cholera. 

[Aragorn2002]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

The British had a tv-show. Some mothers do have them. 

Lol!

[DesertFox]

3 hours ago, G.I. Joe said:

Since monuments came up again, this has got to be the best response to a Lenin statue ever...

Ukraine: Lenin statue given Darth Vader makeover - BBC News

Wow! That has become a true piece of art. 

[The_MonkeyKing]

14 hours ago, Huba said:

Ukrainian Air Force bombed Snake Island:

aftermath

[DesertFox]

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by DesertFox

[Huba]

37 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

 

 

 

So that's almost a whole (Russian) tank company equiped exclusively with captured vehicles, just in 93th brigade, nice!

And more photos of Bogdana SPH. Harrasing fire against Chornobayivka? 

 

 

[LongLeftFlank]

Interesting video, shows the kit of the RU infantry forces operating in Azovstal.

Good luck getting overhead cover on top of that OP up there, boychiks.  Do I smell a UB2 night strike coming up? On the bright side, you'll already be buried....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by LongLeftFlank