How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Aragorn2002]

5 minutes ago, kraze said:

He is. He is no different to putin, just wanted to take his throne. He fully supported an invasion of Georgia in 2008 and an annexation of Crimea in 2014 and said time and again that freeing Crimea is out of the question to him.

The worst thing the West can do is support Russia once again after collapse like it did in the 90s. When Yeltsin waged bloody wars in Moldova, Georgia and Ichkeriya, full of warcrimes, leveled Grozny - the West was still feeding russians.

Because the problem is not putin, the problem is russians themselves. There will always be 'putin' under any name. Only full and complete disintegration of Russia will make the world a safe place.

There's 1 putin but 140 mln russians and they do nothing, like they did every other war - figure out why.

Not learning the lesson that no dictator can exist without full support of his people will make the tragedy repeat again and again.

That!

[kraze]

8 hours ago, Butschi said:

While I don't know if I would be any better in such a situation, murder is still murder even if done by the good guys...

I guess it's time to throw down all the arms then and stop murdering invaders.

[Vet 0369]

1 hour ago, Sequoia said:

Well lets not count our chickens just yet. Things can still turn out to be extremely ugly. I suppose they already are, but you get my drift.

This +1. In my 72 years, I’ve seen so many things that seem like a sure thing fail, and sunrise when things look darkest. I’ve seen the Korean War start and the armistice signed. I survived polio and was within minutes of being put in an iron lung before my paralyzed diaphragm started working again. I saw Nike anti-ballistic missile sites built around Boston, and deactivated (after which we learned they were carrying nukes to detonate outside Boston Harbor, which we were never told about) I saw U.S. advisors sent into Viet Nam by Eisenhower, and removed by Nixon. I have not known a U.S. Presidential Administration that wasn’t involved in a conflict somewhere in the world. What have I learned  in all those years? Take nothing for granted, live every day like it’s your last, because it might be, and celebrate every birthday as a victory.

I’ll believe it when I see it!

 

Please forgive an old man for his rant. Hope is a wonderful thing, but always be prepared for that hope to fail.

[Aragorn2002]

21 minutes ago, Vet 0369 said:

This +1. In my 72 years, I’ve seen so many things that seem like a sure thing fail, and sunrise when things look darkest. I’ve seen the Korean War start and the armistice signed. I survived polio and was within minutes of being put in an iron lung before my paralyzed diaphragm started working again. I saw Nike anti-ballistic missile sites built around Boston, and deactivated (after which we learned they were carrying nukes to detonate outside Boston Harbor, which we were never told about) I saw U.S. advisors sent into Viet Nam by Eisenhower, and removed by Nixon. I have not known a U.S. Presidential Administration that wasn’t involved in a conflict somewhere in the world. What have I learned  in all those years? Take nothing for granted, live every day like it’s your last, because it might be, and celebrate every birthday as a victory.

I’ll believe it when I see it!

Please forgive an old man for his rant. Hope is a wonderful thing, but always be prepared for that hope to fail.

Absolutely agree. The reality is that an innocent country is being raped, partly because of our indifference and inactivity, that we are military and economically completly unprepared for the new Cold War we're head diving into, that our leaders try to sooth their conscience by sanctions and big words and that the Ukrainian cities are bombed into rubble while we speak.

The hope for a 'democratic Russia' is too ridiculous for words. A country that never brought their innumerous war criminals, who murdered and slaughtered their way through history from Lenin to Putin, to court and never brought anything else than misery to it's neighbours, is beyond hope.

All this talk about the end of Putin and a new future is complete nonsense. Putin can now take his time to occupy Ukraine, take some time to recover (or not!) and make his next move. And  there's nothing we can do about it, because we're a bunch of naive idiots. It was the division in the US and Europe and the weakness of NATO that brought this war over the Ukraine. Nothing else. A country like Russia has to be cleaned, like Germany after WW2, it will never to do that voluntarily, so it will never be a normal country, but a source of aggression and war for years and years to come. So let's stop talking as if everything is going our way, it's not. Let's support Ukraine with all we have and let's prepare for another (hopefully) Cold War.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[panzermartin]

So Russian people are the problem of the world as some people suggest here. Well I remember debating you here about invasion of Iraq 20 years ago , many here were all for it. Turned out the pretext for invasion was a fabricated lie and short and long term consequences were half a million dead, destabilizing of middle east, ISIS, refugee crisis etc etc. And Iraq was just an ex colony thousand miles away from home. We didn't demonize people back home. It ultimately had an impact on US  policy and intervention logic. Ukraine will have an even bigger impact on Russia. 

[Aragorn2002]

10 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

So Russian people are the problem of the world as some people suggest here. Well I remember debating you here about invasion of Iraq 20 years ago , many here were all for it. Turned out the pretext for invasion was a fabricated lie and short and long term consequences were half a million dead, destabilizing of middle east, ISIS, refugee crisis etc etc. And Iraq was just an ex colony thousand miles away from home. We didn't demonize people back home. It ultimately had an impact on US  policy and intervention logic. Ukraine will have an even bigger impact on Russia. 

I'm not demonizing Russian people. They have the most to gain from removing all the filth out of their government and society.  And the fact that we commited mistakes and let ourselves be deluded, doesn't mean we can't condemn the invasion of Ukraine, does it? We've learned a lot since Iraq and Afghanistan.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[panzermartin]

4 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I'm not demonizing Russian people. They have the most to gain from removing all the filth out of their government and society.  And the fact that we commited mistakes, doesn't mean we can't condemn the invasion of Ukraine, does it? We've learned a lot since Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yes of course. I was mostly referring to the point that no matter the leadership russians will be the problem. 

[Aragorn2002]

Just now, panzermartin said:

Yes of course. I was mostly referring to the point that no matter the leadership russians will be the problem. 

As long as their way of thinking doesn't change, I think that to be the case. 

[Holien]

Just seen our BBC reporter in Russia say that all Russian kids will be having a lesson on how to identify fake news from the West. Looking for a report to post here. Martial Law and a nationwide lesson to the kids. Joy...

[Lethaface]

5 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Seriously though... what the heck was this soldier trying to achieve and apparently on his own?

Steve

Open door 

[Bulletpoint]

4 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

There was no militarily sound way to achieve the result Putin was looking for with anything less than 5 main efforts.  Therefore, the plan itself was an appropriate solution to the problem Putin asked to be solved.  The real problem is the military was asked to do something beyond it's strategic capacity

I'm leaning towards thinking that the plan was within the strategic capacity of the Russian army - on paper. But that the incompetence at lower levels turned out to be much higher than Putin and his generals realised.

[kraze]

21 minutes ago, panzermartin said:

So Russian people are the problem of the world as some people suggest here. Well I remember debating you here about invasion of Iraq 20 years ago , many here were all for it. Turned out the pretext for invasion was a fabricated lie and short and long term consequences were half a million dead, destabilizing of middle east, ISIS, refugee crisis etc etc. And Iraq was just an ex colony thousand miles away from home. We didn't demonize people back home. It ultimately had an impact on US  policy and intervention logic. Ukraine will have an even bigger impact on Russia. 

That's another erroneous logic. Iraq was an unfinished, unpunished deed from early '90s. Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait and, ultimately, got almost no consequences for it. It was pushed back but it didn't change and was a constant threat to neighbors, incl US allies.

US citizens do not have a fascist ideology driving them, unlike russians, and that's why most still don't make that important connection.

Russians on the other hand, as people, are extremely far right, in the 90s they effectively replaced communist ideology with fascist.

For US an invasion in Iraq caused much uproar.

For Russia invasions into Moldova (not even a year passed since USSR fell), Georgia, Ichkeriya, Azerbaijan, Armenia (russian specops staged a coup by murdering the parliament), Yugoslavia, Ichkeriya again, Georgia again, Syria, Ukraine and Kazakhstan triggered NOTHING.

Russians live and breathe the war.

The failure to understand that is the reason you read the list of non-stop tragedies and crimes above.

[kraze]

5 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I'm leaning towards thinking that the plan was within the strategic capacity of the Russian army - on paper. But that the incompetence at lower levels turned out to be much higher than Putin and his generals realised.

I think it's a lot more deeply rooted than that.

Corruption.

So basically russians were mass stealing money in every way they could, but reported back about their successes 'on paper'.

Like - order: buy 2000 ratniks. They buy 500, the rest of the money is stolen and shared with someone above to look the other way - but on paper they still write "we bought 2000".

It's the reason their artillery still uses rulers and calculators to plan a strike (on civilian targets).

Hopefully it looks like the whole might of russian army is indeed predominantly only on paper.

[Holien]

OK this is the best I can get and feeds into the point @kraze is making.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2/do-not-call-ukraine-invasion-a-war-russia-tells-media-schools

This level of indoctrination has been going on for years in Russia.

"Since Tuesday, schools across Russia have hosted special war-themed social studies classes, where teachers must tell schoolchildren between the seventh and 11th grades the official government’s position on history and what the Kremlin deems the “special operation”.

As for "fascist ideology" driving other governments, it is but is more subtle. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Holien
Added text

[panzermartin]

15 minutes ago, kraze said:

That's another erroneous logic. Iraq was an unfinished, unpunished deed from early '90s. Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait and, ultimately, got almost no consequences for it. It was pushed back but it didn't change and was a constant threat to neighbors, incl US allies.

US citizens do not have a fascist ideology driving them, unlike russians, and that's why most still don't make that important connection.

Russians on the other hand, as people, are extremely far right, in the 90s they effectively replaced communist ideology with fascist.

For US an invasion in Iraq caused much uproar.

For Russia invasions into Moldova (not even a year passed since USSR fell), Georgia, Ichkeriya, Azerbaijan, Armenia (russian specops staged a coup by murdering the parliament), Yugoslavia, Ichkeriya again, Georgia again, Syria, Ukraine and Kazakhstan triggered NOTHING.

Russians live and breathe the war.

The failure to understand that is the reason you read the list of non-stop tragedies and crimes above.

Well US democracy was seriously challenged with Trump administration. For some time it was the beacon of the far right crowd, we even witnessed things like a raid in the capitol. But yes, I agree the multicultural background and the origins of US will never allow hopefully for a fascist takeover . I think fascism has more to do with a social illness though and not the genes of people. Unless we think germans were born to be nazis  which is absolutely not the case proved with today's Germany. 

 

About the list, honestly seems pretty pathetic compared to Anglo-Saxon interventions through the centuries

Edited March 3, 2022 by panzermartin

[Bulletpoint]

4 minutes ago, kraze said:

I think it's a lot more deeply rooted than that.

Corruption.

So basically russians were mass stealing money in every way they could, but reported back about their successes 'on paper'.

Yes, I agree it's about corruption. When the very top of society is deeply corrupt, of course that then filters down through the ranks at every level. The mistake by Putin and his top military leadership was that they thought they could be corrupt, but everyone else would do their best to follow orders and "do their duty".

[kraze]

9 minutes ago, Holien said:

OK this is the best I can get and feeds into the point @kraze is making.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2/do-not-call-ukraine-invasion-a-war-russia-tells-media-schools

This level of indoctrination has been going on for years in Russia.

As for "fascist ideology" driving other governments, it is but is more subtle. 

This level of indoctrination has been going there for centuries. It remains unpunished and that's why you get outright bloody formations like USSR and Russian Federation.

It's not just putin who indoctrinates russians - it's also their pa and ma.

Also "fascist ideology driving other governments being subtle" is this funny first-world-problems thing.

I'm sorry, but no, just no. There's only one country in the world that constantly starts genocidal wars, excusing them with own "chosen-oneness" to grab territories and force people into slavery (by any other name)

People saying "omg omg US is fascist because they installed CCTV on my street" is downright ridiculous compared to a ballistic missile launched at the nursery to punish those "lowly pig farmers".

Edited March 3, 2022 by kraze

[kraze]

5 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Yes, I agree it's about corruption. When the very top of society is deeply corrupt, of course that then filters down through the ranks at every level. The mistake by Putin and his top military leadership was that they thought they could be corrupt, but everyone else would do their best to follow orders and "do their duty".

Corruption is not a top-down thing - it's always bottom-up.

Leaders are always chosen by people - yes even dictators, as no dictator can exist without his people blindly supporting him - and if someone has a corrupt mindset - he would choose a similar person to lead him.

However you are correct that putin & co. were completely sure that everything written on paper is true. The lack of doubt is what comes with an ever growing god complex.

[DesertFox]

 

 

 

[Armorgunner]

Russian 1st guards tank army is defeated 

edit: google translate: 

Russia's first tank army,
an elite unit that decorated
parades on Red Square, 
was defeated near Kharkiv.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Armorgunner

[Bulletpoint]

4 minutes ago, Armorgunner said:

Russian 1st guards tank army is defeated 

@kraze or @Haiduk plz translate

 

New game coming soon?

Combat Mission: Paper Bear

[chuckdyke]

The Russo Finnish Winter War didn't get rid of Stalin. Russian dictators got superglue on their backsides. 

[Armorgunner]

2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

 

New game coming soon?

Combat Mission: Paper Bear

[chuckdyke]

7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

New game coming soon?

Operation Paper Tiger. NATO's Campaign in the Ukraine. 

[Taranis]

2 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Operation Paper Tiger. NATO's Campaign in the Ukraine. 

The history of a 5 axis plan resumed in one word : SNAFU !