(A)SL to RT?

[Erwin]

"And then the increasingly daunting struggle to understand all the rules..." Oh yeah, I remember that too. Thank you God for computer games like CM!

[Doug Williams]

Also, curious how you superimposed the image of the actual ASL board onto your CM map editor screenshot?

[Pete Wenman]

Doug - you have mail

curious how you superimposed the image of the actual ASL board onto your CM map editor screenshot?

Do you guys ever read the manual !!!

Special editor overlay.bmp

P

[Doug Williams]

Doug - you have mail

Do you guys ever read the manual !!!

Special editor overlay.bmp

P

Wait. There's a manual?

;-)

[Doug Williams]

Thanks, Pete.

In my copious free time, I will do as you suggested in your e-mail and learn how to add doors and windows to the interior of the building clusters on your map so as to allow movement between these buildings without the troops having to exit the buildings into the street to move within the clusters (which actually are supposed to represent a single, much larger, building).

Been meaning to mess with the map editor anyway. This is a good starting point.

[Frankster65]

The most lonely, frustrated depressed person in the world must be the guy who writes "the manual." For what-ever product it may be.

[ridethe415]

The most lonely, frustrated depressed person in the world must be the guy who writes "the manual." For what-ever product it may be.

Right? But, it must be a pretty secure job.

[PanzerMike]

That is one ugly looking map there Pete, he he he. Maybe BFC should use it for the next module. Ow, the horror...

[Myles Keogh]

I thought most of the SL/ASL scenario adaptions for CMx1 were terrible. As an ASL player, I was initially thrilled when I saw some old familiar names on CMx1 scenario download sites, but then I played them....

They were almost always terribly balanced with ugly, cardboard-flat maps. It quickly became clear that what made an exciting, fairly balanced scenario in ASL didn't translate when that scenario was adapted to CMx1. ASL's rules and CMx1's engine were two very different beasts. Unfortunately, too many ASL scenario adapters refused to accept this fact and continued to "paint-by-the-numbers" from scenario cards and map-boards and release substandard scenarios.

I did run into a handful of ASL adaptions that did work, but these were the result of the designer using the ASL scenario as a template but then reworking the balance and the map to make it suitable for CMx1. Of course, that takes a lot more work and effort than simply copying from the ASL scenario card which is why there were so few of them.

There haven't been too many ASL adaptions for CMx2 and I've mostly shied away from them based on my poor experience with CMx1 adaptions. One exception was a unfortunate campaign that was based on the scenarios included in an HASL module. It was pretty bad: painted-by-the-numbers with lots of "elite" troops running around in what were mostly very dull scenarios. (That the campaign designer didn't notice the world of difference between "elite" in CMx2 (fearless automaton warriors) and "elite" in ASL (an "8" rather than a "7") speaks volumes of the issues of just copying from ASL scenario card.)

[slysniper]

I thought most of the SL/ASL scenario adaptions for CMx1 were terrible. As an ASL player, I was initially thrilled when I saw some old familiar names on CMx1 scenario download sites, but then I played them....

They were almost always terribly balanced with ugly, cardboard-flat maps. It quickly became clear that what made an exciting, fairly balanced scenario in ASL didn't translate when that scenario was adapted to CMx1. ASL's rules and CMx1's engine were two very different beasts. Unfortunately, too many ASL scenario adapters refused to accept this fact and continued to "paint-by-the-numbers" from scenario cards and map-boards and release substandard scenarios.

I did run into a handful of ASL adaptions that did work, but these were the result of the designer using the ASL scenario as a template but then reworking the balance and the map to make it suitable for CMx1. Of course, that takes a lot more work and effort than simply copying from the ASL scenario card which is why there were so few of them.

There haven't been too many ASL adaptions for CMx2 and I've mostly shied away from them based on my poor experience with CMx1 adaptions. One exception was a unfortunate campaign that was based on the scenarios included in an HASL module. It was pretty bad: painted-by-the-numbers with lots of "elite" troops running around in what were mostly very dull scenarios. (That the campaign designer didn't notice the world of difference between "elite" in CMx2 (fearless automaton warriors) and "elite" in ASL (an "8" rather than a "7") speaks volumes of the issues of just copying from ASL scenario card.)

You are very correct.

I hate most conversions that many tried to make.

I did a few myself that worked out but I had to forget the scale of the map in many ways, exspecially if towns or citys are involved. IN CM you need to down size the distances in city maps to make it work right. Plus as you pointed out, to get balence in play you just cannot throw the same troops into the battle and get the same feel of a game. You need to go in and adjust the units some also. But that can be done without having to change the number of troops. Just the aspects, leadership,morale, weapons and supplies and such.

If you try to just match it, it is trash.

That map that is created, is way too large for what you want, if you are trying to match the feel of the old game.

And dont forget objectives, you have to rethink a different approach as to how to score it also.

Needless to say, get creative and use the old game as a very rough template and dont get caught up in trying to match it much other than the general concept and it would turn out much better.

[Doug Williams]

Well, sh*t. Good advice, I'm sure.

I *may* go ahead with a direct conversion anyway, just for the hell of it, and to practice.

It may be total crap.

[DavidFields]

Curious.

Since they are both WW2 simulators, one would think that balance in ASL would be approximately equal to balance in CM2. And both were trying to simulate reality, not some cartoon version of it.

So, for example, a German platoon, with a mortar, should have similar firepower characteristics in both games.

Besides this issue of making good maps, does anyone have a sense of what in the portrayal of the weapon systems was different. Or, more controversially, which was closer in there simulation to real life?

[Macisle]

My guess is that a conscious decision was made with ASL to greatly reduce the impact of artillery. Look at what havoc you can wreak with a 60 mm or even 50 mm mortar in CM vs. the same in ASL. Sure, if you get lucky on the dice...but in general, arty is more flavor than muscle in ASL--if you can even get it. Between dice rolls for radio contact and pulling a bad card from the deck, you're likely to not even get a fire mission. That is one of the things about CMx2 that has killed ASL for me. ASL arty seems like a joke in comparison.

In a similar way, the ASL system really doesn't model suppression well. Depending on the dice, it's either or. So, in the Guards Counterattack, you might have a full broadside from a large number of SMG squads not even register on the defenders. That ain't gonna' happen in CM. CM offers a full range of suppression levels, along with different reactions among the individual soldiers. Sure, you might get a HOB result with hero generation in ASL, but it's unlikely. I'm constantly seeing individual soldiers do interesting things in CMx2 (all references to CM are referring to CMx2). And think about on-board mortars. You may play a full game of ASL and not really get any bang out of them. In CM, if you've got ammo, you've at least got some good suppression, if not outright slaughter. I've seen mortars in ASL spend almost a whole game hitting a hex of woods without any impact on units there. Again, -ain't gonna' happen in CM, and in real life, units under that attack would at least be keeping their heads down.

I'm not trying to knock ASL. I love it, after all. But it has its limits. And, with regards to arty, I think some bad design decisions.

[Canada Guy]

There are a few I would like to see converted (with modifications to make it enjoyable)

A7 - Slamming the Door (Soviets vs Germans - 1941 - Russia)

A18 - Sbeitla Probe (US vs Germans - 1943 - Tunisia)

J29 - Captive of Balta (Soviets vs Germans - 1941 - Ukraine)

G36 - Hill of Death (British vs Germans - 1944 - France)

and the one CMAK scenario that would make a great scenario is

CMAK - The Melfa Bridgehead (Canadians vs Germans - 1944 - Italy)

I think G36 and the CMAK scenarios are actually doable with what we have (too bad I am crap at making scenarios or I would try to remake Melfa - perhaps whomever made it before might want to take a stab at it.).

[ridethe415]

J29 - Capture of Balta (Soviets vs Germans - 1941 - Ukraine)

I loved this scenario. Flamethrowers, smoke and fire counters, loads of engineers and then the Rumanians in their funny helmets (only outdone by the Dutch). After you used the flamethrower, roll a die for the wind and how the fire spread.

That was a great scenario

[Doug Williams]

Anyone have a link or PDF to the ASL version of Guards Counterattack?

P.S. Good points, Macisle.

[Macisle]

Thanks, Doug!

It just occurred to me that a simple idea for making arty more realistic in ASL would be to create a special "artillery pin" status. Basically, all units under FFE and/or a -2 acquire from direct mortar fire would be frozen in place, without the ability to fire out of the hex. And, perhaps units in adjacent hexes would fall under normal pin status. I'd also make the cards purely for keeping track of fire mission ammo. No more arty "death cards" mixed in.

Flipping things around, I'd be okay with introducing a bit of radio inconsistency into CM, as long as it was realistic. We already have radio dropouts when the radio unit is moving. It might add some nice spice to have radios drop in and out of contact in a realistic way. Assuming that was implemented, it would be a must to have a more visually engaging radio status icon, so as to make the player sweat. -Could really add drama.

Having said that, I wouldn't want anything as iffy as the ASL system. Waiting a long time for arty is fine. Having to discount it as an available asset due to radio inconsistency is another. I think ASL largely does that. I always just consider it a "possible bonus" rather than a reliable tool when I play an ASL scenario.

[Pinetree]

Anyone have a link or PDF to the ASL version of Guards Counterattack?

P.S. Good points, Macisle.

Doug: http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Support/ASLASLSK/ASLOfficialDownloads/tabid/109/Default.aspx

Download the classic pack, it's in there, Scenario A.

Apologies to BFC if this is considered a commercial link.

[J Bennett]

How about the Squad Leader Cross of Iron scenario called "Hubes Pocket" that should fit well into CMRT, except we dont have SS troops yet

[Badger73]

How about the Squad Leader Cross of Iron scenario called "Hubes Pocket" that should fit well into CMRT, except we dont have SS troops yet

You can find it at http://www.wargameacademy.org/SQLA/Scenarios/ScenariosTAHGC/index.html. Look for TAHGC 15 "Hube's Pocket".

[Doug Williams]

Doug: http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Support/ASLASLSK/ASLOfficialDownloads/tabid/109/Default.aspx

Download the classic pack, it's in there, Scenario A.

Apologies to BFC if this is considered a commercial link.

And there it is, thank you sir.

[Andrew H.]

I did run into a handful of ASL adaptions that did work, but these were the result of the designer using the ASL scenario as a template but then reworking the balance and the map to make it suitable for CMx1. Of course, that takes a lot more work and effort than simply copying from the ASL scenario card which is why there were so few of them.

Yeah, the great thing about the SL/ASL scenarios was the *balance*. They weren't necessarily historically accurate, and of course the game itself is far less realistic than CM. But they had great scenarios and must have playtested them to death, since they were usually very tight. I must have played dozens of games that were decided during the close combat phase in the last victory location on the last turn of the game...and I still remember some die rolls from 25-30 years ago.

[Jamesy]

My favourite SL/ASL scenarios were The Streets of Stalingrad (Guards Counterattack and Tractor Works combined), The Road to Wiltz, Hill 621, and The Paw of the Tiger.

I converted all these maps to CMx1 but did not post them because I did not use forums at the time and was concerned about copyright. I regret that now . The reason I regret it is because I put in a huge effort to re-model the terrain to work better with the CM game engine (and to simply look much better), while keeping the forces involved as close as possible to the original scenarios. These creations should have been shared with the CMx1 community.

I play-tested these scenarios endlessly with my son and the result was a howling success I must say. All the scenarios recaptured the intense excitement we all felt when first playing Squad Leader/Cross of Iron (not ASL). I agree with the previous comments about simple map conversions being a disaster - it takes literally days to remodel a Squad Leader map to a realistic and enjoyable CM battle. Unfortunately I got rid of my CMx1 games and scenarios when CMx2 came out, oh well.

Anyway, I plan to recreate Hill 621 in CMx2 - perhaps this Xmas, , it's one of the great enjoyments of CM/CMx2, the Scenario Editor. Ciao.

[sburke]

My favourite SL/ASL scenarios were The Streets of Stalingrad (Guards Counterattack and Tractor Works combined), The Road to Wiltz, Hill 621, and The Paw of the Tiger.

I converted all these maps to CMx1 but did not post them because I did not use forums at the time and was concerned about copyright. I regret that now . The reason I regret it is because I put in a huge effort to re-model the terrain to work better with the CM game engine (and to simply look much better), while keeping the forces involved as close as possible to the original scenarios. These creations should have been shared with the CMx1 community.

I play-tested these scenarios endlessly with my son and the result was a howling success I must say. All the scenarios recaptured the intense excitement we all felt when first playing Squad Leader/Cross of Iron (not ASL). I agree with the previous comments about simple map conversions being a disaster - it takes literally days to remodel a Squad Leader map to a realistic and enjoyable CM battle. Unfortunately I got rid of my CMx1 games and scenarios when CMx2 came out, oh well.

Anyway, I plan to recreate Hill 621 in CMx2 - perhaps this Xmas, , it's one of the great enjoyments of CM/CMx2, the Scenario Editor. Ciao.

Funny, those were favorites of mine as well. I remember Wiltz getting converted in CMx1 I think after CM Afrika Korp and the NWE Mod was out.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Anyway, I plan to recreate Hill 621 in CMx2 - perhaps this Xmas, , it's one of the great enjoyments of CM/CMx2, the Scenario Editor. Ciao.

Dorosh has done a version of that, here