CMRT - BETA AAR - Soviet Side

[akd]

No, it has not.

[Bil Hardenberger]

I recall that Charles said that the target arc increases spotting ONLY in that it adjusts the spotter to directly face the area that has the arc. You spot best when you are directly facing the area you want to spot in. That is the only spotting benefit to arcs.

Has this changed?

That may be, but it usually works for me so I continue to use it as a way to focus my tanks on a suspected piece of ground.

[Lanzfeld]

Well nobody can argue that it doesn't work for you Bill!

Great read as always.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Tank Duel - Round One

So it begins...

Elvis must have gotten an inkling of my ISUs moving through the trees.. the first thing he did was move the Panther and Hetzer 1 back to slightly better positions.. this also spread his armor out a bit. Smart move on his part.

Hetzer 1 dropped out of view shortly after this move, so I suspect it went hull down.

With my ISUs both in position, neither had a spot on anything.. then almost immediately my right side ISU took a penetrating hit from Hetzer 1:

Note the neat hole, and the slight damage:

My left ISU did in fact get a couple spots during the turn... unfortunately.. it fired at neither the Panther (spotted first) nor Hetzer 2 (spotted second), though it had 14 seconds to send a round down range before reversing.

With my right ISU already reversed out of danger, and my left ISU just starting its backward movement, Elvis's Panther fires at the left ISU hitting the trees, though causing a casualty to the SMG Squad nearby.

As turn ended my ISU still had spots to both the Panther and Hetzer 2.. now I need to decide whether to order him to stop and fire or to continue moving away and to safety. The second hit in the trees came from Hetzer 1 I think.

I need to really think about engaging this German armor at this range (around 600m).. I give Elvis that first round, will there be a second? You'll have to stay tuned to find out.

By the way I am cursing the bastard that suggested I bring these behemoths to the battle instead of a second T34/85 Platoon. I would never have brought them willingly, but this is a show and I did want to illustrate the issues that Russian armor faces when confronted by the far superior German panzers. If I had six of these things then I would be more comfortable taking on three panzers.. but two against three? Maybe not such a good idea. Hopefully I have illustrated my point well enough.

[Lanzfeld]

Heating up indeed! F5 key wearing out.

Hmmmm.....I wonder if that tree should be blown away from that 75mm high velocity round? What do you think?

[BLSTK]

Should be quite a halftime show!

[pnzrldr]

FWIW about the movement commands, I have always favored quick over fast, because I am paranoid about bogging or track damage. Have suffered the odd and infuriating immobilized vehicle that I have not been able to determine a reason for, and assume this is due to my operating it in an abusive manner. Not sure if it makes a whit of difference, but I always go to a short line of 'slow' when crossing a wall, fence or other potentially track-damaging obstacle, and I cross softer ground at 'move' to try and mitigate bogging. Would be interested to hear from older grogs on how the track damage, immobilization, and bog models work, and whether these techniques mitigate potential damage.

P.S. Bil, does the INF squad have a spot on the German armor? If so, does that increase the probability of the ISU's getting a spot? Another model question.

[Tux]

Bil, do you think the 'success' you've experienced using cover arcs may have more to do with your common practice of using foliage and other cover to conceal your tanks and hence increase their chances of spotting first, rather than any spotting benefit provided by the CA? This seems like it may the case, to me.

Can anyone help me find a diagram of where inside an ISU-122 the radio set is located? All I keep turning up is damned World of Tanks 'references'. I'd just like to compare the damage it suffered to the penetration point on Bil's ISU and also see if it was the radio set that prevented any injury to Bil's driver!

[A Canadian Cat]

Sorry Ian. I was going to Hunt and changed it to Move

Oh, man no worries but thanks for the clarification makes much more sense.

[A Canadian Cat]

As turn ended my ISU still had spots to both the Panther and Hetzer 2.. now I need to decide whether to order him to stop and fire or to continue moving away and to safety.

Pause just long enough to get a round away and then pull back - what I usually do in situations like this.

By the way I am cursing the bastard that suggested I bring these behemoths to the battle instead of a second T34/85 Platoon. I would never have brought them willingly,

Getting ready to position blame?

[A Canadian Cat]

Ted, two things.. I want them to focus on armor only.. if an infantry team ran across their path I do not want them to engage it, but look for armor.

Also, and some may have different experiences, but I find that a focused target arc like this really helps with spotting.

I have been burned before by tight arcs - my intended target ends up just outside the arc. Setting an armour arc is a good thing - keeps the tank focused on what it should be. What I tend to do is make the arch either circular or really wide. I make sure that the unit ends its move facing the direction of the threat and then have an armour cover arch that covers ever conceivable final location of the known threat or any possible nearby buddies.

Just my 2 cents for any one worried about narrow cover arcs.

[Bil Hardenberger]

4th Company Sector

Russian armor is challenging.. the OT34 was in its firing position early in the turn, but never fired... perhaps it had something to do with the HMG team to its front? Maybe it didn't have a clear view through the trees? I'll keep trying to get into a good firing position that is not too close as I don't know what hand held AT assets Elvis's troops are carrying.

5th Company Sector

In this sector my attacks against the enemy units in the fields north of KT5 are intended to pin them and perhaps bottle them up so they will be out of the main fight that is going to go through KT6.. with this in mind:

1- I have one T34 area firing on known enemy positions

2- I have one squad maneuvering around the enemy flank, in the hopes of cutting off any retreat through the open area to the north

3- The other two T34s are moving into KT6 and will provide some more firepower into the enemy while the infantry continues to pass through (two platoons will be passing through on to KT6)

It looks like Elvis has around a platoon of troops in this area... the units in the trees are withdrawing under the T34 and other support fire, the enemy in the hedgelined field are major pains in my ass.

Soviet Split Teams

I wanted to highlight this aspect of controlling Soviet rifle squads...

During this turn I laid a lot of suppression fire on the hedgelined field with the intent of bringing up an SMG squad to hose down the occupants... this team was obviously out of C2 to its platoon leader.. and this is what happened..

Top- moving into position, suppression did not keep the enemy's heads down as they took one casualty moving in...

Middle- they were only in position for few seconds, never fired, never threw a grenade...

Bottom- ...before breaking and running back to their start positions, leaving another casualty in their wake

Be very careful when using Soviet rifle squads.. they are not Germans and are very fragile when split... too clustered when not split... and need to have a platoon leader nearby to get them back under control.

I wanted to say one more thing.. Elvis's strategy in this battle has been well thought out... he gave me the woods sure, but what that did was force me to work my way through them as I didn't know where he was.. and he is using his infantry as they should be used, at longer ranges. Its going to be challenging getting into Objective Blau with the current positioning.

4th Company, the longer they are in position in the wood line will eventually be in danger of an artillery strike... I need to keep reminding myself that a static force is in danger... I need to keep moving so I don't become arty bait.

[Frankster65]

I've always loved the C2 aspects of CMx2! You constantly have to be aware of where you are sending or positioning your troops. It definitely looks even more challenging with the Russians, similar to playing Italians in CMFI. Great AAR!

[Childress]

...similar to playing Italians in CMFI. Great AAR!

Who will break into smaller teams under 3.0. Agreed that it's one of those subtle elements that lifts CM over other wargames.

When they get around to fleshing out the Ambush routine- which doesn't seem complicated to implement- it will raise the game to another level. Then they can abolish the nonsensical Vehicle Hide command. (yes, it's a pet peeve)

[Jeepster88]

This thread and the recent twitch.tv video makes me more excited about the launch of RT, than any other CM game yet!

[Bil Hardenberger]

This thread and the recent twitch.tv video makes me more excited about the launch of RT, than any other CM game yet!

Jeepster88, thanks for the first post! Glad you are enjoying the AAR and will be purchasing the game.. you will not regret it.

Bil

[JasonC]

Bill is too close to get the most out of those ISU-122s. At a bit longer range, the front should bounce those Hetzer AP shells, though not the Panther's much more powerful ones. The ISU had 90mm front armor with some slope, and 120mm on the gun mantlet. The mantlet should bounce the Hetzer rounds, the upper front hull might at 800 meters and should at 1000. But at 600 they are likely to go in, if they hit the upper front hull (largest portion of the front). Note I am speaking of history, I don't know how it will work in Red Thunder. The hit he just had was lower front hull, same thickness but less slope (like none).

[Bil Hardenberger]

Jason you are right if course. Ideally more than 1000m and hull down is how these should be used. I was trying to increase their accuracy by moving closer, but I don't think I am getting the expected performance.

[Vark]

Were Soviet troops historically fragile, when it came to morale? My impression was their C&C limitations made them less flexible, not less motivated, hence their historically high casualty rate. Inflexibility placed them into disadvantageous situations, and a lack of initiative kept them there too long, especially if command elements were absent. Mimicking the notoriously fragile Italians is not, IMHO accurate and although whilst presenting the player with frustrating C&C dilemmas, they are the wrong ones.

[MikeyD]

There has to be some sort of penalty to disincentivise the player from splitting Russian squads and having them wander the map at will. Soviets weren't set up to subdivide their squads and retain control. I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that Steve would have been perfectly happy to keep unsplittable squads if it weren't for the splitting requirements associated with tank riders.

[Glubokii Boy]

Are BFC considering bringing command delays (from CM1) back or is this feature a total 'write off'...?

Could maybe help differentiate the different forces and training levels

[Sequoia]

There has to be some sort of penalty to disincentivise the player from splitting Russian squads and having them wander the map at will. Soviets weren't set up to subdivide their squads and retain control. I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that Steve would have been perfectly happy to keep unsplittable squads if it weren't for the splitting requirements associated with tank riders.

Maybe in CMRT 4.0 Soviets in such a situation will just go to the ground and stay there rather than break or something of that sort. Just an idea. I know BFC has been hesitant to introduce national characteristics in the past.

[Sequoia]

Are BFC considering bringing command delays (from CM1) back or is this feature a total 'write off'...?

Could maybe help differentiate the different forces and training levels

Suggestions of bringing back command delays have previously been met with negatively by most of those commenting.

[Andrew H.]

I'm already really liking hit decals - I can imagine the radio operator looking down at the destroyed radio between his legs and thinking "Блять!".

[John Kettler]

Jeepster,

Welcome aboard!

If you've got the multiple skills and fast reaction time to play CMRT in RT, then hats off to you! I used "hats" because my hat alone simply wouldn't be sufficient recognition of your obviously impressive abilities, let alone your pixel blood lust. Also, am afraid I have bad news. Because you're so enthusiastic about RT in CMRT, we're going to be looking for a DAR (During Action Report) from you with incisive commentary and carefully annotated screenshots. Because we try hard to be kind to new arrivals, we'll settle for an update frequency of every ten minutes. Mind, each such update requires full details on all intermediate turns. Look forward to that DAR, as, I'm sure, do many others here.

Regards,

John Kettler