Uber Tank crews?

[Lt Bull]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMo8AT0ERN0&feature=youtu.be

Comments?

[Seedorf81]

I would be pretty frustrated if my powerful sturmgewehrboys were put out of action in this way. This must be as frustrating as the sdkfz-mg-gunners-slaughter.

On the other hand, if I was playing the Allied side, I'd be laughing my head off.

[Redwolf]

Look up lots of threads on pistols in the last year.

[ASL Veteran]

I don't think you would get a lot of disagreement from anyone about that situation. My expectation would be that the tank crew would surrender upon exiting the tank. I would also say that (based upon extensive reading) it would be more likely for tank crewmen to bail out unarmed than for them to be packing heat. Unless they were already wearing a pistol while in the tank they aren't going to be spending a lot of precious seconds looking around for their sidearms before getting out of a flaming metal coffin.

[womble]

That looks to me kind of like the tank crew have some kind of immunity to getting suppressed. They only hit the deck after having unassed the vehicle because crews always go to ground immediately they exit a vehicle, and even if they're Elite, they should be starting at "Pinned" having lost team members to nearby detonations in the last few seconds. Perhaps the problem has to do with the fact that the game can't set them to "Pinned" since that would mean they couldn't leave the vehicle...

[SlowMotion]

That looks to me kind of like the tank crew have some kind of immunity to getting suppressed.

I haven't experienced this in 2.10 yet, but in some older versions crews attitude was as if they were still *inside* the tank and protected by it.

[womble]

I haven't experienced this in 2.10 yet, but in some older versions crews attitude was as if they were still *inside* the tank and protected by it.

Aye. I'd concur. It even seemed like they used to continue with the intended orders until deflected by circumstance/getting hosed.

[db_zero]

I recently killed a German recon HT in a h2h game. Went to hunt down the 2 survivors and they killed all 4 of the pursuing Polish troops.

From what I've seen of my own tank crews and opponents vehicle crews performance I've come to the conclusion they have Glocks, 15 round mags and trained by world class pistol shooters. It's really worthwhile to get them to a jeep/truck/halftrack and have them load up with ammo and treat them as Delta Force operatives.

[Fenris]

It's my opinion that tank crews shouldn't be armed at all if they've been forced to bail out. If they demount the tank deliberately fine, but not if they're fleeing the vehicle.

-F

[owenjones]

I thought tank crews being strangely lethal was acknowledged at some point and fixed, was this not the case?

Also what is that smoke mod?

[Freyberg]

If this is an occasional behaviour at the extreme end of the spectrum then I like it.

[Childress]

I don't think you would get a lot of disagreement from anyone about that situation. My expectation would be that the tank crew would surrender upon exiting the tank. I would also say that (based upon extensive reading) it would be more likely for tank crewmen to bail out unarmed than for them to be packing heat. Unless they were already wearing a pistol while in the tank they aren't going to be spending a lot of precious seconds looking around for their sidearms before getting out of a flaming metal coffin.

^^^This. More surrendering, pls.

That said I've run into the Rambo tank crew phenomenon once.

[Lt Bull]

Also what is that smoke mod?

Aris' Dust and Smoke Mod of course!

[MikeyD]

So what's the argument? That when your tank crew bails and finds themselves just a couple feet from cowering green Germans they shouldn't shoot them? That would be mighty odd behavior. Even stranger would be to surrender to a guy curled up in a ball crying for his mommy. If that allied tank crew was 'elite' they'd be pretty much unbreakable, but nobody really should be playing elite unless he's Wittmann of Lafayette Pool.

[Kenzie]

Things like that have happened to me several times before. Just today in fact, I was playing one of the early Scottish Corridor scenarios and a German assault gun was taken out by grenades. The crew bailed out and went down in a hilarious blaze of glory. They were being shot at by a couple of mostly full squads plus a few others, yet they still managed to pop off several pistol rounds and took down one of my men at point blank range. They would have killed more if not for a lucky grenade that landed right at their feet, killing two instantly.

The assault gun was completely surrounded by my troops. They should have surrendered. I don't think I've ever seen a tank crew surrender before now that I think of it. They usually either go down shooting or they just get killed instantly as they leave the tank.

[womble]

I thought tank crews being strangely lethal was acknowledged at some point and fixed, was this not the case?

Just cos it was fixed once doesn't mean it can't have gotten busted again later on...

So what's the argument? That when your tank crew bails and finds themselves just a couple feet from cowering green Germans they shouldn't shoot them?

Bit of a straw man there, Mikey. The argument in this particular case is that the crew should be as (or more) affected by the pyrotechnics inside their tank when they're inside it, and right beside it, and which have killed their crewmates as is the rifle team a few metre away. This sort of contrast in affect might be comprehensible if the tank crew were Elite, with high morale and leadership, but any rifle team in, say, a building that took 2/5 casualties ('twas 4 got out and one of those got geeked in the first cook-off) in that time from those sorts of causes wouldn't be shooting at anything for quite some time, yet those tankers don't even cower a bit.

But looking again at that video, you start off with a Green, +1 leadership, normal morale, at Cautious level team that's out of C2 range. A near miss HE hit on the building they're passing takes them to Rattled and the aftemath of the Faust hit knocks them to Shaken. The suppression meter never says "Pinned", but that might be the UI mod; the meter's definitely full.

It's not the shooting, it's the ability to see, hear and maintain balance and orientation when having been subjected to devastating blast and shrapnel effects.

[ASL Veteran]

So what's the argument? That when your tank crew bails and finds themselves just a couple feet from cowering green Germans they shouldn't shoot them? That would be mighty odd behavior. Even stranger would be to surrender to a guy curled up in a ball crying for his mommy. If that allied tank crew was 'elite' they'd be pretty much unbreakable, but nobody really should be playing elite unless he's Wittmann of Lafayette Pool.

You are making a few assumptions here

1. The tank crew will be armed when bailing out of a burning tank.

From my extensive reading, tank crews tended not to wear stuff while in a tank that could slow down their ability to quickly exit from the tank if it was hit. Sidearms could get caught on internal equipment and prevent a crewman from exiting as quickly as he wanted to in case of an emergency. Seconds count when flaming death is involved. There are one or two instances where I've read of tank crewmen who bailed out armed, but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule. In one instance during Operation Goodwood a King Tiger was rammed by a British Sherman and both vehicles were knocked out. I believe that is a rather famous incident. A personal account of that famous incident from the German side mentions that two opposing crewmen ended up right next to each other after bailing out. They both grabbed for their pistols, but neither was armed. After staring at each other for a short time, they both decided to leave each other alone and go their own separate ways.

2. The force of the detonations of the stricken tank will have more of an effect on the troops outside of the tank than inside of the tank. That just doesn't pass the sniff test does it? In fact, it's probably unlikely that the crew would have survived the first secondary explosion at all since it is apparently ammo cook off while they were inside the vehicle. Explosive force is multiplied substantially when it happens in an enclosed space. In this instance, why wouldn't the force of the blast have more of an effect on the tank crew than it would on the infantry nearby?

3. The tank crew has enough situational awareness to be able to successfully engage nearby infantrymen immediately following a near death experience. From my reading, most WW2 tank crews, upon bailing out of their vehicles, try to run for friendly lines as quickly as possible. Frequently they have no idea as to either the whereabouts or fate of their fellow crew members until they have had some time to get their wits about them. I think you can describe the state of mind of a bailing crew member as shock and disorientation. In one of my references, I have seen a before and after photo of a Churchill tank crew. The before photo they all look proud and confident. The after photo as prisoners they look shocked, disoriented, dirty, grimey, and although you can tell that they are the same men you can definitely tell that they have been through an awful lot.

Is it possible that a tank crew could immediately bail out of a destroyed tank and take nearby infantry under fire and kill them all? I can't say that it is impossible. Is it probable? No, I would have to say that it would fall under the category of being improbable.

[Childress]

Good points. But what of non-catastrophic events? IE, immobs, track hits, etc. The game would have to evaluate the likelihood of crews emerging armed and dangerous based on losses and the nature of damage suffered. A lot to ask, no?

[womble]

Good points. But what of non-catastrophic events? IE, immobs, track hits, etc. The game would have to evaluate the likelihood of crews emerging armed and dangerous based on losses and the nature of damage suffered. A lot to ask, no?

Not just "no", but "Hell, no!". The mechanisms for assessing the effect of nearby explosions and casualties are already in place. I don't think it's "a lot" to ask, at all.

[Saferight]

I think most video evidence out there of vehicle crews bailing show them unarmed an running for dear life to friendly positions. for them to have the balls to duke it out with nearby infantry an actually kill some after what they've just experienced, should be reserved for only the most elite an fanatical.

[sburke]

There have enough examples pointed out of this here, and yes I'd agree in those examples they do appear too aggressive and capable considering what they have just been through. I don't think this is necessarily limited to tank crews either. It is simply those incidents are glaring as they happen in close proximity and aren't a player decided option. You have units that should be hors de combat that we as players continue to feed into the fight.

What I don't know is overall, how often does it proportionally happen? (Also note that with the changes in vehicle and infantry behavior introduced in MG, I'd expect it is going to start happening more often as infantry close assault capability is getting major enhancements.)

I have been sandboxing an urban environment trying out some things, but it isn't quite the same as getting data from actual player experience.

As a last question- what was the crew of the tank rated as?

[TheBlackHand]

I don't want tank crews acting as infantry any more than say 10% of the time (if that). Only a few members of the crew should be armed, if at all, depending on the severity of the event that disabled the AFV.

As a long time customer who pays good money for this stuff, the fact that a beta tester is defending this ridiculous behavior is worrisome.

[Hilts]

I have noticed that crew that bail out (or rather dismount) from a tank which has taken a hit but not yet destroyed always exit the tank in a state of panic and then run round the map like headless chickens for about ten minutes before they rally. Wouldn't it make more sense to have all crews exiting in a state of panic regardless of whether the tank is destroyed or not. That way they would be at least out of the game for about ten game turns......

[Childress]

I don't want tank crews acting as infantry any more than say 10% of the time (if that).

Maybe getting whacked and incurring a casualty(s) = no sidearms on exit? But one of the charms of the CM series is the outlier stuff.

[ASL Veteran]

As a long time customer who pays good money for this stuff, the fact that a beta tester is defending this ridiculous behavior is worrisome.

Don't be too hard on those of us who beta test. Although it may seem to some players as though there is a solid phalanx of supporters for all things BFC, the internal discussions are just as vigorous and multi sided within the beta tester group as it is on the public forums. The difference is that you can't see the internal discussions. Most beta testers will also refrain from arguing amongst each other on a public forum because we already have discussions internally and it's just bad form to take disagreements externally if something has already been discussed internally.