Uber Tank crews?

[GSX]

I've had mixed results from bailed out crews, sometimes they get out and run for cover but others they go down fighting with considerable loss to the enemy, or my forces depending on the side played.

I'm not sure what's possible to implement but I'd like to se a system where if the crew is near to enemy forces then they are panicked and will immediately surrender. If they are far enough away then they should try and retreat to some cover in the rear.

Ideally I would then like to see them not take any further part in the battle, unless later they are confronted by enemy forces and they would take self preservation measures.

I think that in real life the process of being in an armoured vehicle and being knocked out it's extremely traumatic and that if in proximity to the enemy self preservation would be paramount to taking even defensive action let alone offensive action. If this means immediate surrender then I think it's more plausible than taking on a whole section or more of infantry. However, thinking of the Eastern front I would imagine that surrender might not be a viable option in most circumstances.

I do think the balance needs to be adjusted somewhat to tone down the effectiveness of bailed out crews but realise that this needs to be balanced against the use of dismounted crews in a Recce role. I've often used half track or Recce vehicle crews as foot Recce and think that having them immediately throw in the towel at the first sight of the enemy would spoil that option.

[Freyberg]

In the probably couple of dozen games of CMx2 I've played or are playing, I've never seen crews of knocked out tanks turn around and fight the enemy. Most of the time they are suppressed for anything from a minute or two to 5 or 10 minutes. I think it's realistic that there are occasional instances of unusually aggressive behaviour.

[Michael Emrys]

I do think the balance needs to be adjusted somewhat to tone down the effectiveness of bailed out crews but realise that this needs to be balanced against the use of dismounted crews in a Recce role. I've often used half track or Recce vehicle crews as foot Recce and think that having them immediately throw in the towel at the first sight of the enemy would spoil that option.

But there should be a way to distinguish between crew that exit the vehicle voluntarily for purposes of recon and those who are bailing out of a disabled vehicle. For instance, the latter should take a semi-permanent morale hit, which in fact is what I have witnessed most of the time.

Michael

[Freyberg]

I just watched a documentary which included mention of a British tank crew who were killed in a firefight after exiting their knocked out tank - the commander was found dead beside his tank with a pistol in his hand - so the incidence of uber-crews clearly occurred occasionally in real life. Does it happen too often? I personally haven't noticed it, though I haven't played much CMBN-MG yet.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In the probably couple of dozen games of CMx2 I've played or are playing, I've never seen crews of knocked out tanks turn around and fight the enemy. Most of the time they are suppressed for anything from a minute or two to 5 or 10 minutes. I think it's realistic that there are occasional instances of unusually aggressive behaviour.

This has been my own experience as well. I don't doubt that it happens. It obviously does. But I think it is less common than comments on the forum tend to imply.

[Saferight]

This guy was a pain in my ass in and out of the tank believe me

[A Canadian Cat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMo8AT0ERN0&feature=youtu.be

Comments?

A comment I would add would be to me it looks like the crew do try to run away. They take about four steps and then find themselves standing over cowering Germans. After they shoot them they look like they are turning to run again. That part seems reasonable. I guess the issues is should the crew be cowering on the ground too. The thing is, don't forget the crew know that they need to put some distance between them and the burning tank. Hitting the round running seems like a good plan. And then if running meant you had to step over the enemy I think shooting them so they do not shoot you in the back 5s later is probably a reasonable idea as well.

In the probably couple of dozen games of CMx2 I've played or are playing, I've never seen crews of knocked out tanks turn around and fight the enemy. Most of the time they are suppressed for anything from a minute or two to 5 or 10 minutes. I think it's realistic that there are occasional instances of unusually aggressive behaviour.

+1. The vast majority of the time I have seen crews try to run away and get chewed up. Occasionally the fight back briefly but usually not very effectively. I am talking about post uber tank crew fix here obviously.

Any time I have managed to have multiple fire teams engage a tank the crew has not come out ahead. What I mean is one team assaults the tank while the other one or two cover them. In those cases tank crews have just died trying to escape and usually it is the covering teams that take them out.

I think this is an outlier example where the tank assaulting team is no longer in a good state after the tank is destroyed. Therefore they are not able to defend themselves.

[Amizaur]

This guy was a pain in my ass in and out of the tank believe me

Maybe he is so effective because - even outside of tank - he is still radio-linked to his HQ ;-) (headphones).

[Vark]

I take it the behaviour in SF is different, bailed crews fight ridiculously well. A veteran tanker does not fight like a veteran foot soldier. One simple mechanic would be to drop the morale and proficiency, the moment they bail and their proficiency the moment they dismount.

[Erwin]

"I've often used half track or Recce vehicle crews as foot Recce and think that having them immediately throw in the towel at the first sight of the enemy would spoil that option."

In RL it would make sense that any vehicle could dismount safely and scout ahead on foot (and fight if necessary).

I thought that (in the game) the act of bailing out of a vehicle due to crew panic or its being KO'd usually resulted in the crew being pinned/panicked and much less likely to be able to immediately fight on foot. Maybe this probability needs to be tweaked?

[womble]

A comment I would add would be to me it looks like the crew do try to run away. They take about four steps and then find themselves standing over cowering Germans. After they shoot them they look like they are turning to run again. That part seems reasonable. I guess the issues is should the crew be cowering on the ground too. The thing is, don't forget the crew know that they need to put some distance between them and the burning tank. Hitting the round running seems like a good plan. And then if running meant you had to step over the enemy I think shooting them so they do not shoot you in the back 5s later is probably a reasonable idea as well.

For me, the apparent problem with that sequence is that the crew were "running" away, as opposed to "Staggering in a dazed and confused manner in a general direction that meant further cookoffs didn't make their lot worse" and to some extent that they even noticed the cowering Jerries. Another issue is that even if the Germans were "just" cowering because it was a "bit noisy" (being Green), I find it hard to believe they would be such sitting ducks; they obviously could see the crew, so I wonder if "self preservation" algorithms need to have a chance of being able to break through suppression/Pinning in the case of such a danger, even if the reaction is likely to be "surrender", for low morale/inexperienced troops. One thing I'm pretty sure isn't modelled is the morale "lift" that successfully engaging the enemy (I think PF30k-ing a Cromwell to brew it up counts as "successfully engaging" ) would bring.

Perhaps it's just the stark differential in the reactions of the two teams to the environment: the Landser don't lose a man, but are Shaken and Pinned, whereas the tank crew are closer to the explosions, and have lost 40% of their team. Every tank crew I've had that's bailed has been Shaken or in Panic, even ones that have bailed before sustaining any casualties. That doesn't stop them shooting, though; it's being Pinned that does that, or forced to Cower, at least, and I reckon tankers get a bit of a free pass, in that regard because you're right, they'd naturally be trying to get away from what was so nearly their funeral pyre, and Pinned troops can't do that.

Is it just a problem where the subtleties of human reactions can't be quite captured by the "granular" nature inherent in the game?

[Amizaur]

I take it the behaviour in SF is different, bailed crews fight ridiculously well. A veteran tanker does not fight like a veteran foot soldier. One simple mechanic would be to drop the morale and proficiency, the moment they bail and their proficiency the moment they dismount.

Yes, and they should rarely be armed at all, if they bailed out.

In CMx2 if some soldiers are armed and are not pinned or panic, they use their armament against the enemy they see.

This is not how it works in real life for bailed out-crews.

(In fact - for all soldiers, but for the crews especially).

Bailed-out crews usually are not Rambos and fire only in self-defence, they would not shoot at the enemy if they don't have too - they do not want attention of the enemy. They want just to survive.

This behavior would be best modelled by a state of panic (IIRC they rarely shoot in panic, mostly run) or by just disarming the crews. They would be just targets that try to run or hide, and that would be ok.

Of course best would be to code separate kind of behavior for bailed-out tank crews. As you said - a big drop in morale and proficiency, and I would add - rarely armed, and if armed then shooting only in self-defence, just trying to hide or get the hell out of there.

[Vark]

Your tank has been hit by an unidentified enemy weapon and starts to fill with smoke, there are injured crew who need assistance. Do you

a) Pull the jack out of your headphones, and help drag the wounded gunner out of the tank, taking seconds. Then administer first aid and try to crawl back undetected

or

Grab the SMG and extra magazines, check your pistol, ignore the injured crewman, then bail out looking for the enemy to engage.

[sburke]

Your tank has been hit by an unidentified enemy weapon and starts to fill with smoke, there are injured crew who need assistance. Do you

a) Pull the jack out of your headphones, and help drag the wounded gunner out of the tank, taking seconds. Then administer first aid and try to crawl back undetected

or

Grab the SMG and extra magazines, check your pistol, ignore the injured crewman, then bail out looking for the enemy to engage.

c)scream unintelligibly at the top of my lungs sounding frighteningly similar to a 5 year old girl and then proceed to run blindly out of the tank directly into a wall knocking myself unconscious to the great relief of my fellow crew as well as the enemy, both of whom will now congregate around me discussing just how shrilly I was screaming and taking odds on who would have shot me first.

Yeah definitely c

[Vark]

D) Try and bail out, but, after a few futile attempts at opening the hatch lever, realise one of my hands is missing the other only has three fingers and one of my eyes refuses to function.

E) Sit in a catatonic shock, drenched with the viscera from what used to be the gunner, whilst the loader tries to manhandle me out of the turret, fracturing my ankle and dislocating my shoulder in the process.

[sburke]

Apparently uber tank crews are a noted element and Hollywood has just discovered it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2713180/

Set in the waning days of World War II's European theater, a battle-hardened U.S. Army tank commander Sergeant who goes by the nickname Wardaddy leads a unit of five soldiers on his final mission behind enemy lines in April 1945 as Nazi Germany collapses. The M4 Sherman tank unit consists of Norman Ellison, an Army typist and the youngest and most inexperienced member of the crew who is thrust into being a tank gunner; the cunning, vicious, world-wise Arkansas native Grady Travis; a brave young military officer; and an always "tanked" driver.

[Michael Emrys]

The most inexperienced member being put in as gunner? Nuh-uh, I don't think so. Loader possibly. Assistant driver maybe. Most likely simply left behind.

Michael

[sburke]

Incidentally I found out about the movie while reading an article about how they offended the locals in England while filming on remembrance day. Sounds like a winner...

[Kenzie]

I was just playing the third scenario in the Scottish Corridor campaign. I immobilized one of the enemy Tigers with grenades and then swarmed around it with an infantry squad. They were right next to the tank when the crew bailed, but the crew still managed to shoot three of my men at point blank range, execution style.

I had men all around the tank on all sides, but many of them were facing away from the tank when the crew bailed so all they had to do was plop down on the ground and shoot my men in the back of the head before they could turn around. Three of their crewmen managed to survive. They routed my squad and then ran a short distance away and hid in a nearby wheat field, only to ambush my men later on with pistol shots from the wheat, killing one and wounding another. That was a pretty hardcore crew.

Their other Tiger was knocked out by one of my 6-lbers but the crew never actually ran away. They just hopped out of the tank and then sat there next to it for the entire game. Is this because of the scenario or because of the game? It was a little odd.

Their other crew didn't run very far either. They only ran away because the area was crawling with my infantry and they were being shot at. They ran a very short distance, stopped, then ambushed my men 10 minutes later.

[Ultradave]

Break MY tank will ya'. Well take this!!!

[Freyberg]

I was sceptical about this one - the über crews - but I've experienced it half a dozen times since the patch made it easier for infantry to knock out tanks.

[Childress]

Apparently uber tank crews are a noted element and Hollywood has just discovered it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2713180/

Set in the waning days of World War II's European theater, a battle-hardened U.S. Army tank commander Sergeant who goes by the nickname Wardaddy leads a unit of five soldiers on his final mission behind enemy lines in April 1945 as Nazi Germany collapses. The M4 Sherman tank unit consists of Norman Ellison, an Army typist and the youngest and most inexperienced member of the crew who is thrust into being a tank gunner; the cunning, vicious, world-wise Arkansas native Grady Travis; a brave young military officer; and an always "tanked" driver.

The film will feature the last surviving working Tiger tank (Tiger 131) belonging to Bovington Tank Museum. This will be the first time that this tank has been used on a film set. (Wiki)

[sburke]

The film will feature the last surviving working Tiger tank (Tiger 131) belonging to Bovington Tank Museum. This will be the first time that this tank has been used on a film set. (Wiki)

They are also providing a Sherman.

[YankeeDog]

The most inexperienced member being put in as gunner? Nuh-uh, I don't think so. Loader possibly. Assistant driver maybe. Most likely simply left behind.

Michael

Yep. Least experienced crew member was almost always the loader; In U.S. Sherman crews, I've read accounts of infantrymen with absolutely no tank training being Shangai'ed into the Loader position.

But the gunner was usually the 2nd most experienced tanker in the tank; very unlikely he'd be a greenhorn if the rest of the crew was experienced.