Too much money

[slysniper]

I will never sell my $1,000's of dollars of ASL gear. It is going with me to my grave. I continue to buy everything new and never play it! I guess I need help.

I was like that for a while, then I mentally overcame it, sold it and never looked back. I did keep a copy of all the scenarios. Once in awhile I take one and convert it to CM. So I feel it has not been lost totally in that sence.

You can give your collection to me in your will, I would not want then to go to waste....

[HARI SELDON]

I was like that for a while, then I mentally overcame it, sold it and never looked back. I did keep a copy of all the scenarios. Once in awhile I take one and convert it to CM. So I feel it has not been lost totally in that sence.

You can give your collection to me in your will, I would not want then to go to waste....

I keep up my ASL habit in the event of a zombie invasion and I have no electricity to play CM.

[acrashb]

For the price of one new rifle I could pick up every CMx2 available plus modules and probably everything coming out in the next few years.

Of course, your rifle has resale value. I think a better comparison is the cost of ammo. A typical one-day 3-gun type match will consume about $50 of handloaded ammunition, more if store-bought.

On another note, a lift ticket to go skiing for one day, around here, is about $60.

[slysniper]

I keep up my ASL habit in the event of a zombie invasion and I have no electricity to play CM.

I still have the rules and scenarios. I will just carve me a miniture set of ASL out of the bones of the Zombies, I need something to do during my down time anyway. That is as long as I stay alive long enough to enjoy it.

[slysniper]

As for playing the game and the cost. As long as they are pricing their game similar to other good companies out there, I dont think you have much to gripe about when it comes to pricing.

I think we have some that think of the days where you could buy games for $5 to 10 dollars all the time, not very long after release. In the bargain bins of software stores. Them days are gone, so are many of the companies that were raped by the publishers of their games. BF had some raping done to them also. I am glad to see they have figured out how to keep their profits and continue to do what they do.

Take my money as long as they want . Until I find they start producing junk, my money is theirs for the taking.

[newlife]

Or do what I do. Choose one and go with it. My friend and I are having a grand old time with FI and by the time it has gotten old for us, we can decide to buy a new one to keep going or call it done. As a tactical game it doesn't really need a huge time frame. Not being a huge grog I wouldnt be able to tell the time of war the game simulates if I wasnt told Now if Hearts of Iron as a grand strategy game only covered two months of the war something would be horribly wrong.

[Collingwood]

"New CMx2 business model" ?? I'm doubt that BFC need all the business advice they receive on the internet.

The truth is they already run a business model which has kept them in business for over a decade. Since they have inside knowledge on sales, development costs, day to day expenses and wages etc, they are doing business in an informed manner.

We, and you, have no knowlege of any of those business factors. We're ignorant. How could we ever suggest a better business model? It might appear legitimate to ask for everything to be cheaper, or all included in one package for less or whatever by calling that a "business model", but it's not - it's just a customer wanting lower prices.

[Baneman]

Considering the hours of entertainment I've had from CMBN and FI, never mind CMBB and CMAK, BFC's products are the cheapest entertainment I've ever bought.

For me, probably only IL2 has managed anything like the longevity of BFC games. So even if the initial price seems high, over time, the actual cost is practically negligible.

[sburke]

Here, I look at CMFI as a very long time CM products buyer and I draw a conclusion from this point of view : for a CMBN owner, CMFI can't be considered as a new family core game. It obviously belongs to the CMBN family games and should be sold at an extension price. But I already said that.

Yes you have and with all due respect, it still isn't true. You have started with "it is Western allies versus Germany" and ended with "it MUST be the same Family". What you haven't asked is, what really defines a family as that is very much not how BF defines it and I am fairly certain BF didn't just draw a haphazard line that says, hey if we can generate 3 separate games out of the the battles between the Western allies and Germany instead of just 1, that extra 40$ for the whole shebang is going to make us rich! $40. That's it. That is what you are arguing as the distinction of them selling CMFI and CM Bulge as separate Families.

You also confuse me. Why in that logic does CM Bulge get merit as a separate family when CMFI doesn't? CMFI will probably cover a longer period of the war than CMBN and CM Bulge combined. (1943/44 and 45)

What it seems to come down to is you don't really think the Mediterranean theater is worth as much from a purely subjective viewpoint. Honestly when it was first announced I wasn't sure what I was going to think about it, but my subjective feelings about the theater have nothing to do with the amount of labor required by all the folks at BF. And for what is worth, I definitely think I have gotten more than my money's worth...again.

[DavidFields]

Sushi with a couple of drinks: $100.(for 2)

11 nights in Paris, room cost for 2: $2000 (not bad for Rue de Cler)

Taking a train to Rouen, renting a car, driving to the Normandy beaches via a night in Honfleur, and then 2 nights in Bayeux to see Omaha and Utah beaches: don't remember, wasn't much, surprised how difficult it would be for the defenders at Utah beach after the hard points were taken given Allied air domination, and that there is not a scenario that I know of about taking the causeways behind the beach, and feeling a bit bad that the British beaches did not seem as similarly as lauded and that I did not go to the Canadian beaches.

CM2 module cost: with all respect, and not to minimize anyone's difficult financial condition, trivial. OP, I will buy every module that comes out, even if I don't play them much, just to help Battlefront keep the costs down for you--and, heck, I think those design guys deserve some sort of living wage.

And I dream about CM2, Eastern Front, 1941.

[GerryCMBB]

Maybe what some people are bothered about is that the $ amount has gone up a lot since CMBB (not talking about inflation). Then you had 1 game for a whole front. Now we may have 4 game families (say $55 each), each with 3 modules at $35 each. That is quite a jump.

On the other hand many are excited about so much detail and content. If there are user-generated scenarios as in the past I will be happy. If there are only a few small to medium scenarios that come with the game/modules that have been tested H2H, then it will be a harder choice for me. Playing H2H is the best way imo to experience any tactical game.

Take care,

Gerry

[herr_oberst]

While I'm sure we would all like to see lower costs for the games we like, I like to think that a portion of my $$ spent on the games goes not just to cover the cost for coding, artwork, testing, and some profit, but also to invest in the future of BFC.

Their margins are what is going to determine their future as a business, and my gaming future. I am very happy that they've been able to bring additional people onto their staff, and accelerate the development tempo. CMFI was a big, appreciated surprise, and I bought it (even if it outstrips what my machine can run today).

Heck, if I hit a lottery, one of the first things I'd do (well, second - first would be to buy the biggest bad-a$$ Mac I could get, maybe a 27" iMac with dual Thunderbolt displays) is follow the Weasel tracks and convince Steve to take a 'silent partner' investor so they could build more, better, faster. Felt that way since the Alpha AAR of CMBO. It felt like Squad Leader come to the PC. In the new engine, I'd like the whole war done. I'd love for all the little quirks in the game that drive us nuts sometimes to be researched, fixed, and QA'd. But there are limits to what BFC can front in development costs, or spend in non-revenue-generating tasks and still grow their company.

[womble]

Maybe what some people are bothered about is that the $ amount has gone up a lot since CMBB (not talking about inflation). Then you had 1 game for a whole front. Now we may have 4 game families (say $55 each), each with 3 modules at $35 each. That is quite a jump.

And what those people are just plain missing is that BFC wouldn't be here today if they'd persisted with that unsustainable development model. Not to mention that the additional level of detail in all aspects of CMx2 significantly increases the "per unit" development demands.

[ZPB II]

Not to mention that the additional level of detail in all aspects of CMx2 significantly increases the "per unit" development demands.

This point simply cannot be stressed enough. The way CMx1 worked, even though it was pretty realistic and cutting edge was very simplified compared to CMx2. The amount of data you need for a single vehicle to do it's thing is truly quite something. In CMx1 you needed a low poly model and entered in the parameters that in abstract dictated how the system performed. (for example, I'm fairly certain that CMx1 used rather simplified spotting values) In CMx2 I can see it taking several days, maybe weeks to model a single vehicle, depending on complexity. This whole vision block thing is blowing my mind, first you have to do the historical research to find out exactly which model had vision blocks where, did they have magnification, what quality was used generally, how accessible the ports were to what crew member etc...Then after having acquired this information, you need to figure out how to model it ingame and after that is done, you have to do profane amounts of testing to be sure that everything works properly.

Then there are the few people who want a lot. I've seen the opinion that BFC should have produced the entire East Front 1941-1945 for 55$.

BFC has said (IIRC) that CMBB almost was their economic downfall. It was simply so much work for such a little price. And this was CMx1. The workload for the high fidelity CMx2 engine...ouch, I'd rather not think about it.

Also, relative spotting and how it affects the AI. The more I try to wrap my head around it technically the more it starts to hurt. It's no wonder pretty much, uh, almost no games at all utilize true relative spotting. Truly sourcery code.

(These are just my uneducated guesses based on having observed both engines. I don't have access to the dev toolkit nor have I hacked the executable. And I'm not a programmer, I just try to think in pseudocode so I have a better understanding of what is viable and what is not. Sometimes a monkey slings poo at you if you do unreasonable requests!)

[c3k]

I base the value of CMxx by performing a simple calculation. Cost divided by the number of men I can command.

Whereas CMx2 costs more (family, module, expansion) than CMx1, CMx2 shows FAR more men. For a platoon, CMx1 would show about 12 men. (3 men visible per squad.) CMx2 would show 45.

In a serious vein, CMx2 is so far beyond CMx1 that they are not comparable. Using CMx1 prices to determine whether CMx2 is priced correctly has as much relevance as the current price of bananas. Apples and oranges. Or, err, bananas.

If you enjoy it, buy it. If you cannot afford it, make a choice. Is it worth giving up your soy, double-shot, skim, thin foam, decaf, caramel, iced but not cold, latte? A week of skipping the fancy coffee gives you a few years of gameplay.

Ken

[Vinnart]

I think the pricing reasonable in that I have always found much value for the buck from BF games. I bought CMBN end of 2011, and I still have not played through the entire single player. $55 for a years play is not bad at all compared to the money I blow on women. If I could get a years play out of a chick for $55 bucks I would be VERY happy

[ZPB II]

If I could get a years play out of a chick for $55 bucks I would be VERY happy

Have you considered a change of scenery? I won my third wife in a friendly game of arm-wrestling and the fourth was simply a matter of me changing the oil and fixing the gearbox on her old man's tractor. That and a bottle of Koskenkorva.

I kid, I kid. Never had a wife. Only seriously dated once. Commitment is a bad word. Being free to fly is the way to go.

I'm actually pro-feminism but I make, uh, chauvinist jokes to, uh, highlight the discrepancy inherent in the system. I met this extremely hardcore leftist feminist lé artisté girl who wanted to crush balls, burn sacks and pillage nuts and...funny how that turned out.

I should probably be working instead of writing unrelated off-tangent anecdotes on the Internet.

[Mad Mike]

To a small degree I do sympathise with the thread originator.

CMFI is a rather small leap forward in my opinion.

After 5 years since the first release of a CMx2 game (CMSF), we are still playing in the summer season, basically in the same two kinds of terrain set (mid-eastern arid and european summer). It seems that is much more difficult / time consuming to move to different seasons / weather / ground conditions than has been originally envisioned. So this alone gives CMFI the feel of "Same old, same old".

Another thing which is still missing is fire, which has been in the CMx1 titles.

So, the evolution of the engine is going far too slow, in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if the next "family game" would be the Eastern Front 1944 (Bagration), which, you've guessed it, is in summer again .

Anyway, just wanted to give some support to the poor guy, since I can understand his feelings about this.

[ZPB II]

Screw work, the Internet is more fun!

You make a good point about winter. I've been thinking about it and I'm really curious how BFC will tackle the challenge that is fighting a war in wintertime. CMA had winter in it, but it was a bit lacking in that aspect, IMO.

The coldest I've ever been exposed to personally is -50 celsius so that is, umm, -58F?

So I wonder what the TacAI should do if you leave your men lying in the snow. They need to move or they die, but if they move they will get spotted and so on. There will be footprints and tracks. Heavy snow will affect explosive and ballistic performance. Unrealiable gear is notoriously unreliable in the cold. When your men sweat or their clothes soak in water, they will be so very vulnerable if they stop moving. How much of a morale and performance hit this should incur in the game is up to debate.

Also of interest is how supply and winter gear is handled.

A lot of this stuff ofcourse has to be abstracted heavily, but it needs to be noticeable. I want there to be high fidelity in the portrayal of winter so it is not simply a different set of textures with lovely christmas snow decoir.

But I'm very confident that BFC will get it right, or close to right. I'm under the impression that Steve lives somewhere in the middle of not really much where man is still wrestling with nature. Or maybe he has a comfortable office in the city these days, I don't know.

[slysniper]

Maybe what some people are bothered about is that the $ amount has gone up a lot since CMBB (not talking about inflation). Then you had 1 game for a whole front. Now we may have 4 game families (say $55 each), each with 3 modules at $35 each. That is quite a jump.

Gerry

I think as some have tried to point Out. Bf actually underpriced their work to begin with with CMX1 even given the fact how much more they could produce in a given time. They really gave us more than they should have for the first group of games. Plus they were learning how best to sell the game. They really likely were underpaid for the CMX1 series. So now they have learned their lession, plus now they are into a much more time consumming game to produce the present very detailed feature, which we the consummers have demanded.

So there a sign of no intellegence from anyone who thinks they could possible offer the type of volume they did back in the day and not find themselves in dept to some loan shark.

[c3k]

The hold up for snow? Programming the TacAI to track blood trails. And to walk in the tread tracks to avoid landmines. And programming landmines to jam based on frozen moisture in the fuze train. And the ballistic protection characteristics of packed snow with a layer of ice on the face, in front of positions. And the jam ratio of weapons based on lubrication qualities. And the change in muzzle velocities with cold cartridges. And the denser air's effect on drag. And snow blindness. Blood trails and Yeti; aye, that's the holdup...

[Andrew H.]

The hold up for snow? Programming the TacAI to track blood trails. And to walk in the tread tracks to avoid landmines. And programming landmines to jam based on frozen moisture in the fuze train. And the ballistic protection characteristics of packed snow with a layer of ice on the face, in front of positions. And the jam ratio of weapons based on lubrication qualities. And the change in muzzle velocities with cold cartridges. And the denser air's effect on drag. And snow blindness. Blood trails and Yeti; aye, that's the holdup...

So we can assume the beta testing has begun? :-)

[Rocky Balboa]

The hold up for snow? Programming the TacAI to track blood trails. And to walk in the tread tracks to avoid landmines. And programming landmines to jam based on frozen moisture in the fuze train. And the ballistic protection characteristics of packed snow with a layer of ice on the face, in front of positions. And the jam ratio of weapons based on lubrication qualities. And the change in muzzle velocities with cold cartridges. And the denser air's effect on drag. And snow blindness. Blood trails and Yeti; aye, that's the holdup...

Including all this stuff to simulate winter warfare is ridiculous and no rational wargamer would expect this much detail ..... They should leave out the Yeti.

[c3k]

Consider it a clean sheet of paper... White, smooth, featureless, and totally blank.

Ken

[ZPB II]

I'm fine with leaving out Yetis. That book about bloodsucking yetis ripping apart SS troopers and wearing their inside bits as costumes in the Caucasus is highly controversial to put it mildly.

Hungry bears, however, should not be left out. I've read about several instances of UFO activity disturbing and waking up bears which then proceed to rampage supply columns. Usually at night during aurora borealis.

I would provide a link but the Stavka archive is down for maintenance.