Why I hate action spots

[John Kettler]

I played Road to Berlin 1.5 times. I say 1.5 because a power failure killed the action midway through my first attempt, which foundered in a hail of PzGr 39. In the other. I played to the bitter end, and was it ever bitter! Allied Tactical Defeat, with my force stymied at every turn.

Back to action spots.

In CMx1 I could generally put fire where I wanted it and make vehicles perform well enough to be able to cross bridges and such. Was undone by action spots time and again. I targeted a stone building from 40 m away with Target Heavy. Clear LOS, but when I actually click to set the impact point, it jumps from a stone house of considerable size to the stream bank 19m out and very downhill. Tried repeatedly and got so fed up I fired at targets 300 m away, but still suffered , er, aimpoint displacement.

Action spots, AFVs and tight places don't mix at all well. Four attempts failed to get me across the stone bridge. The collision detection model needs work, for my tank penetrated the bridge, in some cases partially emerging on the other side, then stopped, rather than grinding along the inside rail of the bridge. I backed, filled, faced and tried over and over to get the bloody tank to go where I wanted it to, only to be undone at every turn by the waypoint's hopping to an action spot which ruined my maneuver. I've never driven a tank in my life, but I bet I could've gotten it over the bridge easily. I had splendid trees with nasty things under them, but couldn't shoot the trees because because I'm allowed to target no higher than 1 story.

Moving troops and armor is very iffy. I wanted to race my AFV along the top edge of the stream bank, using the bridge as cover. I carefully set my waypoint short of the bridge--and wound up through its other side and stuck! Troop maneuvering is similarly bedeviled,often leaving them exactly where you don't want them. Have the piles of dead and wounded to prove it! How many of those casualties occurred I haven't a clue, for men wound up in places I never sent them. Since wire commo's not modeled, you wind up needing a radio on both ends if you haven't learned to trail a mortar behind an HQ. Never did get a mortar round off, but got mortared repeatedly. Got an MMG into the fray, too. Will close for now, since I'm passing out, having had no sleep since yesterday.

REgards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

I hate them too.

I hate them in conjunction with bogace, especially corners of bocage.

Why can't we put a unit in the corner of bocage, so it can see in both directions? I find that no matter what I do, the unit can see through only one bocage wall, or the other, not "through the corner".

That whole "no go" zone near corners drives me up the wall. Similarly, the fact that only every second action spot is near the bocage.

GaJ

[MikeyD]

"Why I hate action spots" is like saying "Why I hate the internal combustion engine". There may be a hundred completely valid reasons to cuss and swear at it but without one your car is just a large lawn ornament.

[Childress]

In CMx1 I could generally put fire where I wanted it and make vehicles perform well enough to be able to cross bridges and such. Was undone by action spots time and again. I targeted a stone building from 40 m away with Target Heavy. Clear LOS, but when I actually click to set the impact point, it jumps from a stone house of considerable size to the stream bank 19m out and very downhill. Tried repeatedly and got so fed up I fired at targets 300 m away, but still suffered , er, aimpoint displacement

Etc.

Frustrating. And strange. But we're not playing the same game.

As far as action spots are concerned: even if the placement is inexact, the pixel guys seem to manage to line up in a logical manner. And most remaining ambiguities can be cured with the Face command. Also, vehicular movement resulted in cluster-***** far more often in CM1 than CM2. In my experience.

[GreenAsJade]

"Why I hate action spots" is like saying "Why I hate the internal combustion engine". There may be a hundred completely valid reasons to cuss and swear at it but without one your car is just a large lawn ornament.

Yeah I hate that thing too, it's noisey and smelly

[dpabrams]

Life is like an action spot.

[sburke]

Life is like an action spot.

LOL that's worthy of putting on your sig.

[womble]

In CMx1 I could generally put fire where I wanted it and make vehicles perform well enough to be able to cross bridges and such.

I'm not going to address maundering about CMx1, but here are some suggestions as to how you can work with AS, and clearing-up of a misconception or two.

Was undone by action spots time and again. I targeted a stone building from 40 m away with Target Heavy. Clear LOS, but when I actually click to set the impact point, it jumps from a stone house of considerable size to the stream bank 19m out and very downhill.

There are a couple of places on the RtB map in the demo where LOS is buggy. That's assuming you've not got trees turned off and it's the unseen vegetation that's messing you up. There's also a problem sometimes where if you wouldn't have LOS to the AS where a building is standing, it won't let you target the building, even if you have LOS to the front door. I haven't got a handle on this yet, but it's livable.

Tried repeatedly and got so fed up I fired at targets 300 m away, but still suffered , er, aimpoint displacement.

There's a trick with aiming area fire that takes advantage of AS. If you put your view on the far side of the hedge you're aiming at, you can often find a place on that side where you have marginal LOS which will actually put your area fire aim point behind the cover, which makes it more effective.

Action spots, AFVs and tight places don't mix at all well.

Tight places are only an issue if they look big enough for the vehicle and actually aren't. Then the vehicle will path a long, probably undesirable way round.

Four attempts failed to get me across the stone bridge.

That's your problem: the bridge. It's not really anything to do with AS (since vehicles aren't bound by AS centres for their movement orders, and all to do with the bridge models and modelling. This has been discussed a lot, and I certainly find that if I plot all movement across bridges as one bound between waypoints as close to the middle of the bridge entrances and exits as possible but still on land I don't have any problems. Don't get vehicles blowed up on the bridge though, or following units have to "try" and path round the obstruction and will probably fail. It can take a deal of fiddling with the camera view to get the waypoints placed right; generally looking at the bridge from end-on on the side you're dropping the waypoint is where you want to be, then just drop waypoints and delete them if they don't pop where you want, moving away from the bridge at each iteration.

I had splendid trees with nasty things under them, but couldn't shoot the trees because because I'm allowed to target no higher than 1 story.

Nope, you're not allowed to target trees. The whole foliage model is a bit opaque (to understanding) but you'll get used to it. Assume trees will always let the opponent see you and never let you see the opponent, and you'll do better than assuming any consistency.

Moving troops and armor is very iffy. I wanted to race my AFV along the top edge of the stream bank, using the bridge as cover. I carefully set my waypoint short of the bridge...

Bridge again. Bridges are a bit broken. It's not a general issue with movement. Especially not for vehicles. They will try and remain close to the lines you draw. to get them to execute precise movements, you have to give them lots of waypoints, and make them of an appropriate speed for the turns you need to make. If they encounter something difficult, they'll try and box round it at "bump" distance.

Troop maneuvering is similarly bedeviled,often leaving them exactly where you don't want them.

The first part of the solution to this is to split your squads into teams. The second is to understand that the pTruppen are lazy SoBs and will take the quickest route between waypoint A and waypoint B. So if you want to keep them in 'difficult' terrain when there's a flat dry route nearby, you have to literally give them waypoints in almost every AS. While this slows them down (since they have to reorganise every 8m) it's not by much (because they don't get very disorganised in only 8m travel). The third part is to recognise that long waypoint legs give the limited AI too much freedom of movement, and opportunity to allow errors to accrue uncorrected.

Since wire commo's not modeled...

Not explicitly, no, but it's "assumed", like runners are, in the default C2 behaviour.

...you wind up needing a radio on both ends if you haven't learned to trail a mortar behind an HQ...

And this has to do with AS exactly what? It's also something that you a) only need to learn once (thought the subtleties of exactly which HQ can take a little longer to grasp), and get taught in the tutorial.

As others have said, AS are a necessary evil. They're the gap between cylinder and piston that lets the engine turn. And most of the problems as you've described them have little to do with AS per se, and more to do with bridges (barely functional, but AIUI, we're lucky to have them at all) and how LOS can be drawn to elevations of vertical entities.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Regarding indirect fire calls, you don't need a radio at both ends, you only need one at the mortar end (assuming on-board assets). Any unit eligible to call in fire can do so regardless of it's own C2 status.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

What we need is more action spots. Twice as many per area would help alot. maybe in CMx3?

[YankeeDog]

;1364609']What we need is more action spots. Twice as many per area would help alot. maybe in CMx3?

Actually, I think the opposite is true. Action spots right now are 8m x 8m, and this can already be too tight for infantry teams larger than about 4 men. If action spots were any smaller, and infantry team deployment would be come too compressed.

I guess infantry teams could become even smaller to match smaller Action Spots, so that a Squad is, say, 4 teams of 2-3 soldiers each rather than 2 teams of 4-5 soldiers. But this is likely to lead to much more micromanagement, which I don't think is an overall improvement. The last thing this game needs is more micromanagement.

In an ideal world, I think Action Spots should stay about the size they are, perhaps even get slightly larger, but the team-level AI needs to get better at deploying and fighting within the action spot.

I think this will happen. Maybe not as fast as I'm sure we all would like, but the infantry team AI has made dramatic strides since the CMx2 first debuted five years ago with CMSF, and I'm sure it will continue to incrementally improve going forward.

One idea I have pondered is whether Action Spots should overlap a little bit, on order to give infantry units a little more leeway in how they deploy. This might reduce some of the weirdness that can happen e.g., near hard corners. For example, if action spots stayed 8mx8m, but individual soldiers could be as much as 2m outside their team's current Action Spot if the tactical situation dictated, this might help things in certain situations. This would probably cause other problems that would have to be worked through, though, so hard to say if it would be a net gain.

[Mord]

You'll get used to the action spots, John. Takes a while to get your head out of CMX1. You didn't get to play CMSF so you missed all those years of getting used to them. After a while you'll get the hang of how to exploit them in their current state. Once you get past the teething process I think you'll have a great time with the game. The story telling aspects of the 1:1 alone are worth the effort...you'll see some really cool stuff.

Welcome back, btw.

Mord.

[sburke]

The story telling aspects of the 1:1 alone are worth the effort...you'll see some really cool stuff.

Mord.

+1 on that. I am finding my pixeltruppen pull off some really amazing things if I stop trying to tell them too specifically what to do. General orders that allow them more flexibility seem to pay off more than trying to give too many detailed commands. Granted there are exceptions, but the best scenes I have watched over and over in replay are usually the TAC AI doing it's thing.

[A Canadian Cat]

There's a trick with aiming area fire that takes advantage of AS. If you put your view on the far side of the hedge you're aiming at, you can often find a place on that side where you have marginal LOS which will actually put your area fire aim point behind the cover, which makes it more effective.

Interesting idea I'll have to try that. Good tip.

That's your problem: the bridge. It's not really anything to do with AS (since vehicles aren't bound by AS centres for their movement orders, and all to do with the bridge models and modelling. This has been discussed a lot, and I certainly find that if I plot all movement across bridges as one bound between waypoints as close to the middle of the bridge entrances and exits as possible but still on land I don't have any problems. Don't get vehicles blowed up on the bridge though, or following units have to "try" and path round the obstruction and will probably fail. It can take a deal of fiddling with the camera view to get the waypoints placed right; generally looking at the bridge from end-on on the side you're dropping the waypoint is where you want to be, then just drop waypoints and delete them if they don't pop where you want, moving away from the bridge at each iteration.

@womble has given some really good answers. I will only add that I recently had trouble getting some tanks across a bridge and the tip I was given was to look down on the bridge from on high to set your way points. Try this: move the camera near the bridge at level 3 as a starting point. use the mouse wheel to zoom up and then right mouse to tilt the camera downwards. Once you are looking down, zoom up or down so you can see the whole bridge and some of the surrounding land. Now it will be easy to set a way point on the land at one end of the bridge and then the next one on land at the other end of the bridge. Your way points will not jump around or drop in the water or in the middle of the bridge which they sometimes do when you are looking at the bridge with the camera on view level 2 or 3. Works like a charm and I have not had a tank drive into the water or other crazy thing since I started doing that.

[A Canadian Cat]

There are a couple of places on the RtB map in the demo where LOS is buggy. That's assuming you've not got trees turned off and it's the unseen vegetation that's messing you up. There's also a problem sometimes where if you wouldn't have LOS to the AS where a building is standing, it won't let you target the building, even if you have LOS to the front door. I haven't got a handle on this yet, but it's livable.

This is a big one for me - and why I have a love / hate feeling about actions squares too (yes just like I have with my car and its internal combustion engine - good analogy BTW @MikeyD).

It is not a sometimes thing it is an always thing: You cannot area fire at a building if you do not have LOS to the centre of the action square it is sitting on.

What that means is that you cannot blast the front door of a building a few doors down a city street. If you tank is on the street and the houses are next to each other down each side of the road you will not be able to blast the front of the house two or three or four doors up the street even though the tank clearly has LOF to the front door. You can further prove that it can hit the front of the house by placing an enemy squad in the house. Once the tank spots the squad (make them fire at the tank for example) suddenly it can target the front door of the house. You will have a WTH moment.

What is happening is this: You can target the centre of any action square you can see. Or you can target any enemy unit you can see.

In the example above when the enemy squad is in the house looking out the front windows / door you can target them. You will see the rounds hitting the front face of the building. Therefore you tank has LOF to the front of the building. However once the enemy flee or hide or die suddenly you cannot fire at the front of the building any more even though your tanks was just shooting at it. WTH.

It is a limitation in the game caused by actions squares. Which we all know we cannot live without.

I really hope that this is something that can be tweaked because it really matters during urban fighting. As your infantry advance down the street your tank's job is to blast away at the houses down the street that have LOS to your guys as they move. However you cannot do that effectively because of this limitation. It is too late for your infantry if you have to wait for your tank to spot the enemy down the street.

[c3k]

Hexes. Hexes make everything better...

[John Kettler]

Mord,

Appreciate the welome back! There are some cool things to see, as when my Sherman with two crew casualties unhorsed and, thoroughly POed, whipped out their .45s and went after the Germans, guns blazing. Didn't last long, but it sure was impressive to watch. Some of my other infantry somehow stormed a bridge without orders and died.

c3k,

Doesn't the staff at BFC have enough problems without being cursed,too?

Regards,

John Kettler

[~Viajero]

;1364609']What we need is more action spots.

Or more cowbell?

[John Kettler]

Up to 2.5 games now, following the bloodbath of the ages at St. Auban or some such. Allied Minor Victory.

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!

That ville was practically razed by the time the battle was over. Roads are MUCH easier to navigate than bridges, it's weird to find precision direct fire called "area fire," but I like that artillery seems to work more like the real thing and has previously unseen, much needed options. Burst plumes are way too low, and LOS should be establishable to same for adjustment purposes (action spot with height, same for trees). And where is map fire? Not to mention WP! Check fire is great, but adjust is something of a mystery when firing into a cloud of artillery produced dust. My observer team mysteriously disappeared at game end, so couldn't gauge success, but it killed a Panther and broke up a German rush on the CP!

The towed TDs did pretty much what they did historically, died without accomplishing much. The same can't be said for the German bombardment, which pulverized much of my defenses. Helps to have a high ridge! Am not sure I grok the appearance and disappearance of attacking AFVs, leaving perplexity and target engagement problems in their wake. (Level of Difficulty: Basic Training). Panther on ridge has long reach, making for iffy advance. Is there a +1 button so I can see things when I'm not close to them? Background visuals are now so intricate it's hard to see what's going on. Keep taking lumps without knowing how or from where, even with multiple replays. Have also noticed I can destroy a stone wall, but drive a tank through a fence which self-repairs. Was repeatedly frustrated targeting buildings by action spot issues, even with whole ends visible. When you don't have infantry, you need to get creative! Building collapses most impressive! Continue to have problems with map controls, vehicles and men turning around for no apparent reason and tacking on an extra movement leg, often on the wrong AFV.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

kettler few things off the top of my head

ctrl + t toggles trees off, nearby trees show trunks only (my default), and trees on.

z is zoom out I believe, with x, c, etc controlling zoom in etc. I forget the exact setup, but one is for a wide angle view. very helpful. + and - will go through your units. double clicking will select the formation of the unit selected - say you want to order a whole platoon, you can double click on any team in the platoon. I believe ctrl l shows the VP locations, or maybe its landmarks. ctrl k does smoke on/off, and I think ctrl j shows vp locations or again, landmarks ( i may have these backwards)

the w, a,s,d keys function much like movement keys in first person shooters, if you choose to use them to 'fly' around the map.

Also if you hold down I believe the control key you can click units to highlight more than one, especially useful if you have mixed in units and want to issue orders to several, but not all (where lassoing with the mouse wouldnt work)

if I can remember any other keys Ill post them. It definitely has a learning curve but in the end is way better than CMx1. I loved the old games, but everything else aside, the 1:1 infantry representation is huge.

I find it interesting that someone else posted that it would be easier to introduce casual gamers to CMx1 than CMx2. I completely disagree. For casual gamers, or those new to wargames, the more abstractions the worse it is. I cant tell you how many people were turned off or didnt 'get it' about the '3 man' infantry teams in CMx1, and other abstractions. CMx2 looks better, and is more of what you see is what you get. Also much more realistic in my opinion, and has the real time option which cant be overestimated in how many people who probably wouldnt play WeGo will play real time.

[Sublime]

Also its very important to me that any time I open a new scenario or battle I zoom my view all the way out. Sometimes things loook... off to me or weird. It was this subtle feeling I had for the longest, until I discovered the zoom controls! For whatever reason some scenario designers leave the view zoomed in, or something happens, and sometimes you'll open a scenario and it''ll be on 2.4x zoom or something.

[Champagne]

Hexes. Hexes make everything better...

Is it possible to have Action Hexes rather than Action Squares?

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

Appreciate the suggestions, but am at least less incompetent than before. Unfortunately, the AI has gotten smarter, much smarter and more perverse than it was during CMx1, making even defense tough. Got pulverized by the bombardment, and then it really got tough, though I made a charnel house of his armor: via luck, persistence and plain old hard tactical work. Did figure out how to toggle trees (trunk through engine deck looked odd, though), desperately wanted an LOS tool and a cover arc which showed where LOS ended (are we playing Concentration?) and had a heck of a time at low overhead view with zooming past everything and winding up who knows where.

Troop control and vehicle control remain a problem, since I seem to invariably put in a leg that reverses course and have to remove it, never mind the strange things that happen on their own (the showing the rear of the AFV to the enemy being a mystery to me). Have yet to get organic mortars into action, a condition not helped by losing half of them in that hellish bombardment). The visuals are indeed amazing, but the icons irritate me. I know I can turn them off, but sans the +1 command, I can't see anything at a distance. With icons on, it takes some doing to figure out where the unit really is--time consuming! Have absolutely no idea how anyone can play this complex game in real time. WeGo is more than enough for my brain to deal with. Notice the time increment is smaller now, probably to keep load times down. Used to be a minute.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Mord]

Notice the time increment is smaller now, probably to keep load times down. Used to be a minute.

Regards,

John Kettler

Time is the same. It just counts down instead of up.

The targets are the LOS tool now...you just right click to cancel them out.

BTW. Here's a hint. If you set multiple way points you can click on one, select the target tab and get LOS from that way point. The line will orginate from where your unit is positioned but it's actually processing LOS from the way point you selected. It's a nifty tool. not realistic but still very nice. Gives you an idea of what you'll be able to see once you get there.

Mord.

[General Jack Ripper]

John Kettler - As I understand it, you have only recently begun to play on the CMx2 engine?

You now understand why the first chapter of the Shock Force manual was "How to unlearn what you have learned."

The best advice I can give you, is to read the manual, and don't try to micromanage your pixel troops too much until you have gotten used to the new system. I find my troops are quite capable of doing the majority of the fighting by themselves, with minor guidance from the brain in the sky.

However you slice it, learning CMx2 is a time consuming process, but the engine rewards careful study.

Best of luck in your future battles.