Pistols vs Truppen

[sigop22]

Hey,

I found this really odd yesterday playing the third mission into the campaign "A Bloody Ride". You're suppost to assault what is basically a mobile artillery camp with a section of troops and a couple panthers. So, I lay down a barrage of artillery, sit and surpress with MG's and then advance forward.

So at first a section was coming up to a trenchline with another section to its right and a scout team to it's left. However, as the scouts were at the 30m mark to the trench, four armoured crew men stood up and began firing their pistols.

Both my scouts were killed, both of them at 33m away. Then they proceeded to stand up, despite being under MG42 fire from two sections, and kill four more with what I would call a 'barrage' of pistol fire at about 60m. Both sections with a line of fire were firing their MG42's, their STG's, and about four Kar98's with no effect. A guy would cower, wait a moment, stand up, and proceed to kill another guy with a pistol.

This really threw me off. I've fired a Browning High Power at my job, and you'd be lucky to strike a target at ten feet with no wind(The CF have terrible Brownings though). These guys were at 50m at dawn, just knocking guys off in my section.

So I cheated and reloaded the scenerio. Same thing. They would stand up, and all four would proceed to pick off my guys with pistols and my weapons would have little effect.

So I reloaded again, mad now that twice I've lost over a dozen men to four guys with pistols.

This time I went straight up the road a moment after a barrage with my panthers leading the charge and my sections flanking. We surpressed a trench of Engineers and had an assault team storm that trench. With the left clear, I made a base of fire on a short hedge facing the poultry farm with a section and pushed another one into the breach and storm one of the poultry farms. Another engineer team was caught out in the open and killed.

But then, Chuck Norris stands up from his trench and proceeds to kill five men with his Browning. One from the assault section, and then five from the base of fire at the hedgerow. Again, they were close to sixty metres from Mr. Norris.

But as I watched flabbergasted as Chuck wiped out the base of fire, two more Crewmen (I'm calling them Stallone and Statham) started firing Brownings from a building and killed a tank commander at 50m away and kill two guys in the assault section in a building.

Nevermind the Garand or BAR, these Brownings have accounted for nearly thirty guys in three saves with a poop-ton of supression. :confused:

I dare say something is overpowered, but is anyone else getting these strange Stallone like crewmen who seem to effectively wipe out sections? I know if a scenerio calls for a guy in the wrong place at the wrong time, but two supress up to three sections and kill a good 30% of that platoon with nothing but pistols just sound crazy. 'Veteren' squads at that.

That or Hans just feels like taking a dive.

I'm at work right now so I can't provide any screens so if I have an opportunity tonight I could give you the layout and a picture of the area as I don't play WEGO to provide a replay.

[TrapOne]

I am picturing early episodes of The Unit.

[Vinnart]

I have seen the same thing with pistols being very effective at close range. The U.S. 45cal. crews seem most effective making crews still valuable when their vehicle is down.

As far as the results you describe I am figuring the pistol wielders were high experience with high motivation. Now and then I have seen some Rambos that are tough to kill. Just as in real life I suppose there are some guys that just have that weird light around them. You know they aren't even going to get a scratch.

[slysniper]

YES, THE GAME HAS ISSUES WITH PISTOLS

I see the problem most often with ex tank crews. They fight like they are still surrounded by armor and that no small arms fire will hurt them. True supermen.

Many have pointed out the fact that the accuracy is too good and that crews should not be wanting to fight with nothing more than a 45 in their hand.

We will just have to wait to see if BF fixes it at some point.

Til then, use them Boys, some of the best fighters on the map.

[MengJiaoRedux]

YES, THE GAME HAS ISSUES WITH PISTOLS

I see the problem most often with ex tank crews. They fight like they are still surrounded by armor and that no small arms fire will hurt them. True supermen.

Many have pointed out the fact that the accuracy is too good and that crews should not be wanting to fight with nothing more than a 45 in their hand.

We will just have to wait to see if BF fixes it at some point.

Til then, use them Boys, some of the best fighters on the map.

wow. I forgot all about this, but I have a dim memory from playing the demo last summer of a US crew attacking a Marder from behind. I can't remember how it turned out, but I remember being amused at the time.

[Rokko]

uhhh, I know that scenario. Dismounted Priest crews in trenches and foxholes, and you can't even really reach them with your Panthers most of the time.

The Priest has a crew of 7, that means 7 guys with pistols of doom, not much fun I can tell you.

[OrdeaL]

Are BF aware of this bug(yes i think its a bug), i too notice these pistols of doom killing everything around with ease!

[MarkEzra]

Are BF aware of this bug(yes i think its a bug), i too notice these pistols of doom killing everything around with ease!

BFC is aware. From CMBO on. It's a long standing issue

[Rocky Balboa]

BFC is aware. From CMBO on. It's a long standing issue

Marcus, as usual your cryptic response poses more questions than answers ... If CMBN (CMx2) is a totally different engine/application from CMBO (CMx1), then how is this situation related?

[OrdeaL]

What he said ^

[MikeyD]

Let us remember the military issues pistols for their utilitarian purpose and not just as a fashion statement. You are indeed meant to shoot at people with them and with some luck kill them before they kill you. The question is whether the present model fits with how we imagine things would play out. It basically boils down to convincing the developers that 5-10m could be knocked off pistol's range. At 30m everything is equally lethal, except maybe a bayonette.

[OrdeaL]

My issue is that they are more effective then a rifle team...

[costard]

It sounds like the pistols are using the same hit and effect code that SMGs are using - same calibre, same round, save some (quite a lot) of coding by not having to introduce specific routines for pistols.

I think the work around so far has included a disastrous morale state for crews on abandoning a vehicle, but if they have decent leadership and experience (or, in terms of code for morale status, need to be able to re-man the vehicle and fight on) they'll fade this state and return to normal morale.

Just guessing, but I think it makes sense given the results we're seeing. I can't see that a solution apart from writing a routine for pistols as a class of weapon will work too well, we'll just have to wait and see what Charles comes up with.

[Broadsword56]

At 30m everything is equally lethal, except maybe a bayonette.

Indeed -- I just read an account of an overrun US platoon on the first day of the Bulge, where the GI's Garand suddenly jammed and, in desperation to get away, he *threw* it at an assaulting German, hitting the astonished Landser in the head and knocking him down. Whatever works...

[YankeeDog]

My issue is that they are more effective then a rifle team...

At ranges of ~30m, a team of armed with semi-auto pistols probably should have an advantage over a similarly-sized team armed with bolt-action rifles. They have a smaller, lighter weapon (makes switching targets easier at close range, and also means you have to expose yourself less to fire the weapon accurately), with a larger magazine and faster reload. OP's comments re having a hard time hitting a target at 10 feet with a Browning Hi-Power aside (those must have been some pretty awful Brownings!), a decent semi-auto pistol is perfectly accurate at these ranges as long as you have some basic pistol marksmanship training. Heck, I used to use 40yds as practice distance with my Glock, and almost never missed outside the silhouette, even on quick-draw. Not that my firing range experience is in any way equal to real combat shooting, but I really don't see the bolt-action rifle as being any advantage at this range. The rifle would be way more cumbersome, and much slower to reload.

However, I *DO* see cause for concern here, just not in the 30m incident.

At 30m, net advantage might be to the semi-auto pistol, but I'm skeptical a semi-auto would be any real advantage over a bolt-action rifle at 50m, and even more skeptical at 60m. And the pistols definitely shouldn't have an advantage over another automatic weapon at these ranges.

In summary, IMHO, semi-auto pistols at ranges <40m should probably be superior to most other small arms in the game, even semi-auto rifles like the Garand, due to ease of handling, high rate of fire, and fast reload. SMGs and probably the StG should be superior to the semi-auto pistols at this range, though. But over 40m, effectiveness of the pistol should drop off very rapidly. By 100m they should be pretty much worthless.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It basically boils down to convincing the developers that 5-10m could be knocked off pistol's range. At 30m everything is equally lethal, except maybe a bayonette.

Except if you actually read the original post he says 50 to 60 meters. That is not an impossible shot by any means, but the maximum effective range for your typical non-scoped pistol is 45-50m. Most shooters will struggle to consistently hit anything at over 30m.

[John1966]

Does the coding take into account that an experienced crew is only experienced at being a crew? I can see that the pistol is a good weapon at very short range (self-protection), but how good are a crew going to be with them?

Furthermore, if they are (for arguments sake) an elite crew, then they can only be considered elite while they're being a crew. ie Sitting in their tank. If they're running around being shot at in nothing but the shirt they wear then I'd have thought they'd be pretty green at that kind of action. So maybe the solution is for them to have two different morale qualities (if that's the right phrase). One for in the tank and one for when they're not in it.

In other words, an elite crew changes to green when it dismounts. (But goes back to elite if it remounts)

[Childress]

But over 40m, effectiveness of the pistol should drop off very rapidly. By 100m they should be pretty much worthless.

I submit they would still have some suppression value even at that range. Bullets whizzing around one's head concentrate the mind wonderfully.

[Rokko]

At ranges of ~30m, a team of armed with semi-auto pistols probably should have an advantage over a similarly-sized team armed with bolt-action rifles. They have a smaller, lighter weapon (makes switching targets easier at close range, and also means you have to expose yourself less to fire the weapon accurately), with a larger magazine and faster reload. OP's comments re having a hard time hitting a target at 10 feet with a Browning Hi-Power aside (those must have been some pretty awful Brownings!), a decent semi-auto pistol is perfectly accurate at these ranges as long as you have some basic pistol marksmanship training. Heck, I used to use 40yds as practice distance with my Glock, and almost never missed outside the silhouette, even on quick-draw. Not that my firing range experience is in any way equal to real combat shooting, but I really don't see the bolt-action rifle as being any advantage at this range. The rifle would be way more cumbersome, and much slower to reload.

However, I *DO* see cause for concern here, just not in the 30m incident.

At 30m, net advantage might be to the semi-auto pistol, but I'm skeptical a semi-auto would be any real advantage over a bolt-action rifle at 50m, and even more skeptical at 60m. And the pistols definitely shouldn't have an advantage over another automatic weapon at these ranges.

In summary, IMHO, semi-auto pistols at ranges <40m should probably be superior to most other small arms in the game, even semi-auto rifles like the Garand, due to ease of handling, high rate of fire, and fast reload. SMGs and probably the StG should be superior to the semi-auto pistols at this range, though. But over 40m, effectiveness of the pistol should drop off very rapidly. By 100m they should be pretty much worthless.

But the starter mentioned an incident where his guys were Panzergrenadiers, with 2xMG42, an MP40 and maybe even an STG44.

I know that mission, too, and it's a pretty frustrating one. Not because it's hard, but because you constantly lose men to pot shots from M1 Carbines and pistols. Even from much farther than 30m. I've seen pistol kills at up to 100m.

[poesel]

Indeed -- I just read an account of an overrun US platoon on the first day of the Bulge, where the GI's Garand suddenly jammed and, in desperation to get away, he *threw* it at an assaulting German, hitting the astonished Landser in the head and knocking him down. Whatever works...

When I was in the army we were given the advice that, if the russians come into pistol range, we should better throw the damn things... (german P1)

[Baneman]

I've also noticed, to my chagrin, that squads armed with MG42's and MP40's have an amazing ability to find lines of fire that pass between all the members of an opposing squad - and they will blaze away for turn after turn without ( it seems ) realising that they could "swing" the muzzle a little to either side which would result in dreadful slaughter - instead of ... hitting no one.

This, coupled with the accuracy and fanatical behaviour of crews, is what generally causes their disproportionate casualty outcomes.

Btw, I generally play Axis, and have been on the receiving end of more than a few "tank crew banzai charges" - do the Allied players see the German tankers doing much the same ?

[YankeeDog]

But the starter mentioned an incident where his guys were Panzergrenadiers, with 2xMG42, an MP40 and maybe even an STG44.

I know that mission, too, and it's a pretty frustrating one. Not because it's hard, but because you constantly lose men to pot shots from M1 Carbines and pistols. Even from much farther than 30m. I've seen pistol kills at up to 100m.

Note the incident the OP described is broken into several smaller subincidents. I was talking about the first part, where a scout team is wiped out by pistol at ~30m. This specific part I don't find cause for concern. As I said, it's the later sections where the pistols are apparently rocking on the guys with automatic weapons at 50m+ that I think are worth a second look. And I completely agree that pistols hitting at 100m+ as you describe should definitely be a rare, lucky shot thing. The bullet is certainly lethal at that range, but it's a challenge for even an excellent pistol marksman to hit a stationary man-sized target at that range, let alone a moving man, and/or one partially behind cover.

As a side note, losing men to pot shots from M1 carbine at 100m+ should not be surprising at all. It has a muzzle velocity about double that of a M1911 or p38 pistol. This plus the steadier rifle-style stock rather than a pistol grip means it is generally considered to have an effective range of somewhere around 250m - 300m. In the close-in fighting that you generally see in Normandy, I actually consider it superior to the Garand. In my opinion, the advantages of the larger capacity, detachable box mag (as opposed to the Garand's rather unwieldy en bloc clip system) outweigh the loss of bullet energy and penetration, especially since you rarely have your soldiers shooting small arms at targets more than 300m away in Normandy anyway.

[GhostRider3/3]

But then, Chuck Norris stands up from his trench and proceeds to kill five men with his Browning. One from the assault section, and then five from the base of fire at the hedgerow. Again, they were close to sixty metres from Mr. Norris.

But as I watched flabbergasted as Chuck wiped out the base of fire, two more Crewmen (I'm calling them Stallone and Statham) started firing Brownings from a building and killed a tank commander at 50m away and kill two guys in the assault section in a building.

OMG... I was laughing my ass off... sorry I just thought that analogy was awesome... "The Expendables Last stand" LOL Sorry mate... Just button up a panther and smash them.

[YankeeDog]

Minor niggle: I do feel obligated to note it should be "... Kill five men with his Colt." Standard pistol sidearm for pretty much all branches of U.S. Service in WWII (and the only one CMBN models) was the Colt M1911A1. We won't see the 9mm Browning Hi-Power in CMBN until the Commonwealth module comes out (hopefully, any minute now...).

When you're talking about U.S. WWII forces, "killed 5 men with his Browning" sounds like you're talking about a G.I. armed with a BAR, or possibly a M1917, M1919, or even .50 M2 MG.

[Rokko]

Note the incident the OP described is broken into several smaller subincidents. I was talking about the first part, where a scout team is wiped out by pistol at ~30m. This specific part I don't find cause for concern. As I said, it's the later sections where the pistols are apparently rocking on the guys with automatic weapons at 50m+ that I think are worth a second look. And I completely agree that pistols hitting at 100m+ as you describe should definitely be a rare, lucky shot thing. The bullet is certainly lethal at that range, but it's a challenge for even an excellent pistol marksman to hit a stationary man-sized target at that range, let alone a moving man, and/or one partially behind cover.

As a side note, losing men to pot shots from M1 carbine at 100m+ should not be surprising at all. It has a muzzle velocity about double that of a M1911 or p38 pistol. This plus the steadier rifle-style stock rather than a pistol grip means it is generally considered to have an effective range of somewhere around 250m - 300m. In the close-in fighting that you generally see in Normandy, I actually consider it superior to the Garand. In my opinion, the advantages of the larger capacity, detachable box mag (as opposed to the Garand's rather unwieldy en bloc clip system) outweigh the loss of bullet energy and penetration, especially since you rarely have your soldiers shooting small arms at targets more than 300m away in Normandy anyway.

Yeah you're right. That particular M1 incident just made me want to hit someone because it was a lone guy in a trench who's buddies had been wiped out taking pot shots at my guys in a building and they didn't wanna shot back despite having him spotted because of some LOF oddieties or sumfink.

Of course the guy who got hit was a squad leader

I think in that mission I only lost MG gunners and squad leaders.

Another time I wanted to test AP capabilities of US 3in ATGs against Panthers at very close range (40m I think) in dense fog. So after a few seconds the ATG crew spots the Panther, the leader goes like "Enemy armor spotted", raises his pistol and fires a bullet straight into the tank COs head.

Again made want to hit someone although I wasn't playing anyone really