Pistols vs Truppen

[Sergei]

Do Geneva conventions forbid the use of chainsaws? This is important.

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of good old Napoleonic methods of warfighting. All the men together in a square. 'Read-point-fire!' Back then they didn't even bother to use the word 'aim'.

About a Garand-firing soldier being unlikely to hit his man at 300m, lets remember squads are meant to act as single entities. 12 men means 12 rifles, or 11 rifles and one BAR all trying to knock that same guy down. The individual is just a cog in the machine. I think that may be what's galling people the most about those pistol wielding tankers, that individual gunslinger combatants are not 'supposed' to trump massed squad fire.

[acehammer]

I'm reminded of good old Napoleonic methods of warfighting. All the men together in a square. 'Read-point-fire!' Back then they didn't even bother to use the word 'aim'.

About a Garand-firing soldier being unlikely to hit his man at 300m, lets remember squads are meant to act as single entities. 12 men means 12 rifles, or 11 rifles and one BAR all trying to knock that same guy down. The individual is just a cog in the machine. I think that may be what's galling people the most about those pistol wielding tankers, that individual gunslinger combatants are not 'supposed' to trump massed squad fire.

Im wondering when these super tankers start kicking butt are they in very good positions ? I mean if they are in great cover and concelment and they start to chop up exposed infantry thats really close maybe its not that far fetched I,ve never had it happen.

[Chris69]

Im wondering when these super tankers start kicking butt are they in very good positions ? I mean if they are in great cover and concelment and they start to chop up exposed infantry thats really close maybe its not that far fetched I,ve never had it happen.

It's usually one of two cases: either they just ran a few hundred meters across open terrain, from the point their vehicle was knocked out to whatever waypoint they should have driven it to, or they are somewhere near the KO'd vehicle they recently exited from. And as we all know, there is no better firing position in the world than behind a burning Sherman without wet ammo storage.

[acehammer]

Very good lol

[slysniper]

When my Supertankers take action, they are normally in the open , standing up Yelling at the enemy foul words about how they have wrecked the paint job on their ride.

Well, all that was true except for the paint job part.

[YankeeDog]

Still running tests (very time consuming to set everything up and record all the data), but I wanted to give some preliminary results here.

My initial test is 5-man Sherman crew, all w/ M1911A1 pistols vs. a 5-man German 1/2 squad w/ 4 x K98 and one MP40 at a range of about 45m. All teams regular, no command bonuses or penalties. I made sure everyone has plenty of small arms ammo, so ammo supply is not an issue. But I deliberately excluded all other specials from the team inventories (including hand grenades).

Test run is for 5 minutes. In many cases, the firefight is over long before the 5 minute mark, but in some cases there are still one or two (very rattled) soldiers left on both sides at the end of the fight, continuing to occasionally exchange potshots. I am keeping track of this in the data.

So far, through 24 runs the tank crew appears to have an advantage, but it is not a large advantage. There is a lot of variation, though, and I need to do more runs before I can state anything with certainty.

More tomorrow.

[Macisle]

Thanks for running the tests, YankeeDog!

[slysniper]

As part of your test are you looking at how many shots each side fires.

First, 45m is a super long distance for a pistol, But If enough rounds are fired, they dont need to be good, they just need to be lucky.

Then when you close that distance, to like 20M, I wonder how much the comparison will change.

But it sounds like you are on track to be able to submit something to help maybe get a change within the game.

Good Job

[YankeeDog]

As part of your test are you looking at how many shots each side fires.

First, 45m is a super long distance for a pistol, But If enough rounds are fired, they dont need to be good, they just need to be lucky.

Then when you close that distance, to like 20M, I wonder how much the comparison will change.

But it sounds like you are on track to be able to submit something to help maybe get a change within the game.

Good Job

Tracking rounds fired is very difficult, because the rounds carried by a WIA/KIA drop off of a unit's ammo count when the casualty goes down, but may be partially restored if someone in the unit performs buddy aid. So I can't simply do the arithmetic of ammo count at start vs. ammo count at end to get shots fired. I will see if I can establish an estimate of shots fired for at least a couple of runs as a representative sample, though.

Based on my observation of the runs so far, it doesn't look like anybody is hitting particularly often -- there's a lot of lead that flies for every hit scored. And I would say that the pistols are putting out out a LOT more rounds than the k98s. I would estimate that the tankers take 3-4 pistol shots for every 1 shot that a German with a k98 takes. Since the tankers aren't completely running away with the test and winning every time, the pistols must be a fair bit less accurate than the k98s. When they win, the pistols are winning by volume of fire.

Of course, the MP40 is in the mix there, too. If the Germans didn't have the SMG, things would probably be skewed much more in the tankers' favor.

[c3k]

German scout teams will be 2 men with Kar98's. That would eliminate the MP40.

(I know that sometimes the Mauser bolt action could "stick" due to the angles required to operate the bolt. Of course, a well-used Kar98 would be a bit more "slick", assuming it has been maintained. As well, an infantryman with a bit of experience should be able to operate the bolt without any problems. (New operators of Mauser actions tend to try to pull the bolt back a bit early, before fully rotating and clearing the lugs.))

I assume both groups have similar cover, experience, motivation, and leadership?

And, to put it in perspective, 45m is half a football field. That is no easy shot with a handgun.

[YankeeDog]

German scout teams will be 2 men with Kar98's. That would eliminate the MP40.

(I know that sometimes the Mauser bolt action could "stick" due to the angles required to operate the bolt. Of course, a well-used Kar98 would be a bit more "slick", assuming it has been maintained. As well, an infantryman with a bit of experience should be able to operate the bolt without any problems. (New operators of Mauser actions tend to try to pull the bolt back a bit early, before fully rotating and clearing the lugs.))

I assume both groups have similar cover, experience, motivation, and leadership?

And, to put it in perspective, 45m is half a football field. That is no easy shot with a handgun.

Yes; I have exactly matched experience, motivation, and leadership, and cover. I will give full details on this when I post the final data.

The problem with using scout teams, as I noted above, is that then I will be testing 2 teams of 2 vs. one team of 4 (using a 4-man tank crew such as a Stuart crew). This introduces an additional variable to the test, which I would rather avoid.

However, perhaps after this set of runs is done, I will try this and see what it looks like.

As for the Mauser, it uses a cock-on-open bolt action, rather than the cock-on-closed action seen in some other bolt action designs, such as the SMLE. Cock-on-open is generally considered to be significantly slower to cycle than cock-on-closed, and in fact this technical difference is one of the reasons why the SMLE is considered to have a significantly higher effective ROF than the k98 (larger mag capacity is another reason).

Working on data... just finished another 8 runs. The American tank crews are still in the lead, though the Germans won several runs, too. So neither side is running away with the results.

[c3k]

Cool. I'm looking forward to seeing your results.

(Not criticisizing your approach: I'm thinking of an accuracy test-range. I'll need to ponder it a bit more. I'd like to eliminate as many variables as possible. It'll be at least a month for me to craft it, tune it, and run the iterations. Hmmm....)

[YankeeDog]

Yes -- a 4 or 5 man German team with just k98s would be ideal. Unfortunately, I could find no way of getting a unit like this in the editor.

[Migo441]

@YankeeDog, thanks for running these tests. This is interesting.

Your results thus far seem to support the über-pistol hypothesis, i.e., it is not simple confirmation bias but the pistols are objectively too effective at the tested ranges.

My sense is that there would indeed be some range where the pistols would have an advantage over other weapons for various reasons (ROF, shot capacity, quicker to adjust aim). But this tipping point would be quite close. Certainly closer than 45m!

[acehammer]

5 minutes is a real long time in a firefight between 10 people at 40 m, at 20 m, it would be unthinkable. how often is the issue decided in the first 30 or 45 seconds?

[acehammer]

YankeeDog thanks for the effort I,m very interested in your tests.

[acehammer]

I think the first 15 or 20 seconds often decides the issue more often than not? Is this a correct assumption?

[YankeeDog]

I think the first 15 or 20 seconds often decides the issue more often than not? Is this a correct assumption?

I think this is correct as a general statement. Based on the runs I observed in detail, the first exchange of fire is critical, and if one side manages to get at least 2 casualties on the other side in the first 20 seconds or so without taking any casualties itself, then the fight is basically over.

However, there is an incredible variation in results, and some fights do go the full 5 minutes without clear resolution. In general, the longer the fight goes, the less shooting there is, and more the soldiers spend most of their time cowering and/or administering buddy aid. Bear in mind that I intentionally designed this test to be between two completely out of C2 teams, so morale degrades quickly once the firefight starts. But I just watched a run where the last two Germans managed to rally and gun down the last American just before the 5-minute clock ran out.

Working on the last set of runs now. Full results later tonight after I get everything collated and pretty. It's actually shaping up to be a statistical dead heat, with the Americans slightly ahead in the final tally, but not enough to say that they are clearly superior; could just be luck.

As of right now, I can definitively state that I see nothing in these results to support the existence of "Super Tank Crews" that overwhelm multiple enemy infantry units with ease, except as a statistical anomaly. At the same time, the results may support a modest reduction in the effectiveness of pistols at longer ranges (and by "longer ranges", I mean anything over ~20m).

[slysniper]

As of right now, I can definitively state that I see nothing in these results to support the existence of "Super Tank Crews" that overwhelm multiple enemy infantry units with ease, except as a statistical anomaly. At the same time, the results may support a modest reduction in the effectiveness of pistols at longer ranges (and by "longer ranges", I mean anything over ~20m).

That depends on how you look at it, I for one do not expect pistols to be hitting what they shoot at at 45M, so that for me is already showing a flaw.

But I am more than willing to see anyone give me some proof that is founded on any real life stats that there is a desent chance at that range. So for me, your test showing it is a even fight at that range is a flaw to me.

[Migo441]

I agree slysniper.

On the one hand, it's nice to see no evidence of "Super Tank Crews." On the other hand, anything showing combat parity at these ranges is troublesome.

[YankeeDog]

That depends on how you look at it, I for one do not expect pistols to be hitting what they shoot at at 45M, so that for me is already showing a flaw.

But I am more than willing to see anyone give me some proof that is founded on any real life stats that there is a desent chance at that range. So for me, your test showing it is a even fight at that range is a flaw to me.

Perhaps I was unclear -- some people have been posting anecdotes of a single tank crew fighting off and defeating infantry at 2:1 or even 3:1 odds. My results suggest that anything like this is an outlier result unless the pistol shooters have some other advantage like substantially better cover, they get the drop on the enemy, etc. If a 5-man tank crew with pistols vs. a 5-man infantry team with rifles and one SMG is roughly a dead heat at 45m, that same tank crew against two 4-5 man infantry teams at this range should be in big trouble. Perhaps next, I'll do a test to confirm this...

However, I will agree that the results do suggest that pistol accuracy should be toned down a bit. Bear in mind that a small change in pistol accuracy is likely to have a large effect on final results. That is, if a 50% group for an average pistol shooter at 45m is a 30cm radius circle (for the sake of argument), then changing that 50% grouping to a 35cm circle might swing final results fairly dramatically.

[acehammer]

That depends on how you look at it, I for one do not expect pistols to be hitting what they shoot at at 45M, so that for me is already showing a flaw.

But I am more than willing to see anyone give me some proof that is founded on any real life stats that there is a desent chance at that range. So for me, your test showing it is a even fight at that range is a flaw to me.

I agree with you all the way on that aspect of the test slysniper.If squinty Clint does,nt show up we should be safe. YankeeDog what,s your initial impression of just the stuff you have at 20m?

[YankeeDog]

I agree with you all the way on that aspect of the test slysniper.If squinty Clint does,nt show up we should be safe. YankeeDog what,s your initial impression of just the stuff you have at 20m?

Haven't done anything at 20m yet... perhaps once these tests get done, I'll take a look at that.

[Baneman]

Thanks for doing the tests.

For me, the problem is not so much pistol accuracy, but the fact that the tankers are often willing to run 50-odd metres (sometimes more) to engage at all !

So even if pistols ARE too accurate at 30-40m, it shouldn't really be a problem if the crew behaviour is tweaked/altered to prevent their "banzai" charges.