CM Black Sea – BETA Battle Report - Russian Side

[BTR]

 "...and into the juicy still filled with explosives center of a T-90, it's pretty reasonable to say the T-90 operator better have backup or a better plan than throwing tanks at a M1A2."

 

Hi there, 

 

I feel some people overestimate how "juicy" the interior really is. the actually juicy interiors are quite well protected frontally, and, dissected, represent a very small portion of the actual tank. No crew would bring anything more than an auto-loader-full of ammo to actual combat, unless they got themselves ambushed while travelling. I drew a little approximate picture for you on a T-90S. Red's what makes the boom, yellow what doesn't make boom unless it's a very aggressive HEAT penetration. 

 

As for rounds, M892A3 I recall was specifically geared towards Kontakt-5 which provided it's performance against latest current T-XX line-up. How will it fare against Relikt is unknown.  

 

Edited January 10, 2015 by BTR

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Eighteenth Minute - Part 1

 

Tons of action this turn, so this is going to be rather lengthy.  This scenario has devolved into two major battles.. my 1st and 2nd MRCs against Scott's Americans, and the battle to reduce the pocket.  Both are complicated affairs, at least from my point of view... Scott has terrific visibility across most of the map and I am learning that some areas are now shut off from me.  He is slowly restricting my maneuver choices with his overwhelming fire superiority.

 

1st MRC

 

Happy to report that the Bradley Fire Support Vehicle (FSV) that was hit by an RPG round last turn was indeed knocked out.. interestingly, only one hatch opened, which could mean that only the driver survived... which would be good news as it would reduce, slightly, Scott's fire support flexibility.

 

Across from my initial screen of RPG teams and the BMP platoon Scott withdrew into a tighter formation... he killed one RPG team this turn and degraded one other.  I moved one BMP (under a smoke screen) from the gully they were deployed in to hopefully a flank position on Scott's company... it moved into position just fine but gained no spots during the turn.. I will move it again next turn to try to get in to Scott's rear.

 

Looking from Scott's perspective... you can see how tight the US Company team is now positioned.  My BMP #1 has a spot on two M1s.. umm.. if I can see them, guaranteed they can see me... could be trouble.

 

I have no clue how this M1 from the US Company Team North saw this 1st MRC BMP all the way across the map.. but it did, and it quickly destroyed it:

 

 

2nd MRC

 

Scott is still taking his time moving in on 2nd MRC... I have four vehicles remaining as can be seen below (x3 BMP-3, Tunguska).. not a lot of combat power, but enough to keep Scott busy for a several more turns hopefully.  Note the US Scout (single man) next to the Tunguska... and the Ukrainian soldier on the hill.. I have a feeling these two units are giving Scott some great intel.. that is not good.

 

Seven turns until my aircraft arrive in the AO.

 

Power Plant

 

I finally got a hole in that damned wall this turn... so with that in place the following is my assault plan... 

 

1. I have had a team in this area for a few turns.. was hoping they would spot a minefield if one existed across this opening.. they have not so I will attempt to enter the compound with this team in this direction.
2. This team will enter through the hole made by my T90 a few minutes ago.  the intent for this team and the team at #1 is to be a diversion for the main thrust through the gap at #3... 
3. With a BMP in the gap I will suppress the buildings within and enter through this hole with a full platoon of infantry, they will clear the compund one building at a time.
4. I was hoping I would get a hole in this corner of the compound as well.. but alas my BMP failed to get a breach.  The platoon in this area will remain in reserve for now. 

 

Scott can now overwatch the road I have been using to move my Assault Company into action... in one action that is going to come back to haunt me..  the battalion HQ track (BMP-2K) with the FAC team was spotted and destroyed by Scott's overwatching unit.. probably an M1... 

Edited January 11, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Eighteenth Minute - Part 2

 

Krichek

 

the assault on the two objectives in Krichek are under way... on the East side of the river is 1st Platoon/3rd MRC plus a few recon teams.  The T90 in this view is the immobilized tank.  

 

The 3rd MRC platoon's task is to clear the East side of the river, including attempting to destroy the Tunguska (#1) that is known to be in this area.

 

The Assault Company will seize the Town Hall objective first and then move through the town.. I am not feeling easy about this assault as I still do not have a lot of firm information about what Scott has in the town.. remember I am expecting a full Ukrainian Company with US recon support.

 

Note in the bottom of this image that there is another destroyed BMP (from 1st MRC). .another victim of the M1 Scott has overwatching this highway.  The Assault Company wil have to complete its task with the four tanks and three BMP-3s that have successfully crossed and that are already on the move.  The rest of the vehicles still moving forward will join the 1st Platoon/3rd MRC to clear the East side of the river.

 

The most forward recon team with 1st Platoon/3rd MRC spots a Javelin team about 300 meters away.  It is facing East towards 2nd MRC,  This is awesome.. Scott has Javelins in the pocket too?  Damn you Teacher!!

 

In the town itself.. Scott appears to be orienting on my recon teams on the outskirts of the town... this is exactly what i want him to do so I can move my Assault Company into attack position with the least amount of interruption.. my main worry is ATGM teams though, not vehicles.

 

On the outskirts of town Scott moves a BMP-2 perfectly in the sights of one of my recon teams.. it has a beautiful keyhole view through the gap between two buildings at the vehicle...

 

It took three rounds but eventually it does the job:

 

Here is the view looking East... note that the Tunguska (#2) is now well forward behind the building as shown.. you can also see the position of the BMP-2 that was just destroyed, a BTR command vehicle that just moved into position.. and my crawling recon team which will attempt to take out the BTR.  I just want to keep him busy and feeding troops into this area.

 

Blood Board

Edited January 10, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Codename Duchess]

Will aircraft continue an attack if the spotter is killed before they get on station?

[Jargotn]

If you could delay the US troops until support arrives you might hit the US hard. Where exactly will your air assets strike, in relation to the US positions?

[John Kettler]

Bil,

 

You would appear to follow the "reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" model. You've taken some serious lumps, but from what I can tell, this is in no way stopping you from continuing offensive ops. I don't see why losing the FSV wouldn't be a major hit on pnzrldr's FS capability. After all, not only are the specialists there, but so, too, the technical gear. Are you positing he has either a JFO or a JTAC (same link)? My understanding is that you both are operating in a pretty heavy ECM environment. Is this correct, or are you the only one handing out annoying electron gifts? Your pic of the spotting of the Javelin team confused me, for my brain perceived US infantry in the foreground, since my brain isn't used to seeing Russians in digicam, body armor and such. Considering your BMP-2K was a dedicated command vehicle, I'm astounded that it had so many men aboard (11?). Don't all those map boards and computer displays take up a lot of room? On a lighter note, except to the crew, the demise of 1 MRC's BMP-3 is clearly traceable to getting hung up on a birch while hastily reversing! In fact, the reversing was so forcefully done that the tree partially embedded itself in the vehicle, fouling it long enough to allow the fatal event to occur. Eight turns left until the Su-25 and two attack helos show up, eh? Wonder where pnzrldr's force will be by then? Am surprised the BMP-2 you engaged from that splendid keyhole position simply sat there through two complete RPG firings and didn't either move or shoot back. Decidedly odd behavior. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited January 10, 2015 by John Kettler

[Bil Hardenberger]

If you could delay the US troops until support arrives you might hit the US hard. Where exactly will your air assets strike, in relation to the US position

 

My air, if it arrives, is targeted right between the 1st and 2nd MRC positions.  Hopefully right in the middle of Scott's forces.. we'll see.  If he is still contending with my two forward companies when and if that arrives then I should have a show.. of course I hope to have Tunguska 1 and whatever other AA he has in the town taken care of by then.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bil,

 

You would appear to follow the "reports of my death are greatly exaggerated" model. You've taken some serious lumps, but from what I can tell, this is in no way stopping you from continuing offensive ops. I don't see why losing the FSV wouldn't be a major hit on pnzrldr's FS capability. 

 

John, I have identified a second Bradley FSV with the US Company North.. so unless his FAC was in the FSV with the southern company he should still have good use of his support assets.  Of course, he could have more than one FAC too.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Vanir Ausf B]

As for rounds, M892A3 I recall was specifically geared towards Kontakt-5 which provided it's performance against latest current T-XX line-up. How will it fare against Relikt is unknown.

Keep in mind the game assumes the Abrams is using M892A4.

[HUSKER2142]

Keep in mind the game assumes the Abrams is using M892A4.

 

RPG-7 won't care about M892A4 .

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

RPG-7 won't care about M892A4 .

 

But the RPG-7 operator will be deeply concerned about the CROWS, CITV, ERA, APS etc, etc, etc.

 

Which is to say, it is as absurd as my boasting that the AT4 will crush all Soviet tanks.

 

Re: M829A4

 

It's widely believed that it's been tested against current generation ERA tiles.  How valid this is, I'm not sure, but it is not unprecedented for such things to make their way west.  It's not unreasonable to assume, given the reletive stagnation in threat passive armor arrays that the A4 is mostly focused on ensuring ERA is not terribly effective against yankee imperialist sabots.

 

Re: T-14

 

Here's a few ways to look at it:

 

1. It is something that so little is known about to make including it, in effect an act of pure fiction in terms of what it actually does.  This is counter to the other future systems in the game which are broadly things that exist in small quantities now, or are not especially unreasonable leaps (like APS on Abrams, AMP rounds etc)

 

2. It is a vehicle that is apparently going from not really existing to serial production in short order.  As a brand new from the trackpads up design.  Again if it's going to roll into common operation in 2017, neat, but the struggles with other newer Russian systems would indicate that it would the exception, vs rule to go from blueprint to battalion.

 

I don't really see a reason to include a tank that is still largely conjecture, or still has not gotten near operational status.  More advanced T-90s/M1A2s, yeah, new modifications seem a go.  Brand new tank that we know nothing about in two years?  Pushing it.

[John Kettler]

BTR,

 

Welcome aboard!

 

I knew I forgot something in my earlier post, but now I remember what it was. That would be your T-90S Vulnerable Area diagram. Believe it was supposed to be in your inaugural post, but I don't see it. My understanding is that the T-90S does have some explicit armor protection over the ammo carousel, a feature signally lacking going back to the first such installation in the T-64/72/80/90 series. This certainly helps, but I'm not sure whether it could handle a US DU penetration (projectile would undoubtedly be degraded), but the issue may be moot. Even if the ammo carousel isn't pierced and blows up, I have grave reservations the crew would survive the pyrophoric catastrophe the primary penetration would cause. This, though, suggests DU may not be quite as lethal upon penetration as we've been led to believe. I'd like more data before I'd simply accept the claims made at the linked article.

 

 

Bil,

 

Appreciate your explanation on pnzrldr's redundant FS calling means.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited January 11, 2015 by John Kettler

[Buzz]

"Tons of action this turn, so this is going to be rather lengthy.  This scenario has devolved into two major battles....."

Both battles described clearly. You are playing your tough hand as well as anyone could Bil.

Hope your "barnstormers" arrive on time and do their thing.

Looking forward to your next report.

[Macisle]

Thanks for the report, Bil.

 

Things are getting "edge of seat" exciting! The next few turns are going to be mega.

 

Thanks also to Vladimir and the other Russians (and Ukrainians wherever you are!) for your presence on the forums and input. It is a great thing for us to be able to share perspectives and discuss things in a civil, friendly way like this. Ironic, of course, since the vehicle is a simulated conflict involving our nations.

 

But that's par for the course with the human race, I guess.

[Rinaldi]

 

 

 

Images like this, from both your and Pnzr's AARs slowly but surely help mine and my friend's games exponentially. Being able to visualize like you do helps add an element of planning to the game I wouldn't have realized was possible.

[John Kettler]

Rinaldi,

 

I believe things are getting out of hand, for those two insist on ordering chaos (which staff school teaches that skill?). We can't have that. Besides, all this exposition of tactical planning and combat application is giving me some sort of CM inferiority complex. These two fight their battles much differently than I do, for my style, if you can call it that, is more intuitive. Bil's approach seems all but mathematically rigorous, where pnzrldr's seems more fluid and aggressive. Am learning from both, but dealing with all this information is intermittently overloading my brain. And nobody's shooting at me, I get reasonable rest, eat mostly good food, am warm and dry, so I don't want to think how overwhelming the real deal would be with information (often confused or even wrong) flooding in (presuming the info channels work) or maybe trickling in; mayhem and chaos everywhere, hot, parched and hungry (other settings in winter) , while bearing crushing responsibility for those you lead and must care for, deal with higher, keep complex equipment fully operating and in the fight--all with terrible wounds or death potentially coming in an instant. Am quite glad I'm a wargamer and not a warrior.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited January 11, 2015 by John Kettler

[womble]

In the aniGIF of the BMP getting nailed from across the map, it looks like 2 of the three birch trees it's backing through are gone, gonny-gone after the silver bullet strikes home... It could be the smoke obscuring them, or is the impact energy so powerful it does what it used to take 150mm arty shells to do in WW2?

And very sweet use of that smokescreen.

[BTR]

Keep in mind the game assumes the Abrams is using M892A4.

 

Sure, but just as I haven't used T-90MS in my diagram, I've got no authority on how M892A4 performs. Speculatively though, I've seen various protection numbers for the MS floating from 750, to outlandish 900mm KE RHA on glacis. Conversely I believe M892A4 achieved some ~800mm RHA in test environment (i.e. optimal conditions and impact angle), correct me if I'm wrong thought. 750mm on T-90MS is a rather pessimistic estimate, considering T-90A has some glacis areas approaching 710mm already. There are two things I can extrapolate from that - one is that M892A3 (if it is included in CMBS) cannot penetrate T-90MS, and that a penetration with M892A4 isn't all that "sure" as some might believe. 

 

 

BTR,

 

Welcome aboard!

 

I knew I forgot something in my earlier post, but now I remember what it was. That would be your T-90S Vulnerable Area diagram. Believe it was supposed to be in your inaugural post, but I don't see it. My understanding is that the T-90S does have some explicit armor protection over the ammo carousel, a feature signally lacking going back to the first such installation in the T-64/72/80/90 series. This certainly helps, but I'm not sure whether it could handle a US DU penetration (projectile would undoubtedly be degraded), but the issue may be moot. Even if the ammo carousel isn't pierced and blows up, I have grave reservations the crew would survive the pyrophoric catastrophe the primary penetration would cause. This, though, suggests DU may not be quite as lethal upon penetration as we've been led to believe. I'd like more data before I'd simply accept the claims made at the linked article.

 

Strange you can't see it, I believe I spoilered it and it shows just fine over here  . T-90S(A) is structurally equal to T-90(A), and there isn't any substantial protection of the interior carousel, at least not substantial enough to stop a direct DU impact. One can argue that the carousel is protected by the tank itself, sitting in the lower center-most point of the vehicle. T-90MS however, does have some proper armoring on it's external ammo compartment, nothing on the levels of handling a direct DU hit thought. More importantly, blowout panels are present. 

 

Turret separation due to combat action on proper production models isn't that common actually. From 08/08/08 conflict, where all the T-72(AV/B)'s had K-1, out of total 65 lost Georgian tanks, 15 were destroyed in combat, 20 were destroyed after the conflict and 30 were taken as trophies. Out of the 15 tanks lost in combat five had their turret removed. 1 due to airstrike, 1 due to being abandoned and then detonated from inside, 3 due to RPG hits.  

 

As a side-note, do T-90MA's in CMBS have 2A46M-5 or 2A82? 

Edited January 11, 2015 by BTR

[Lille Fiskerby]

 

As a side-note, do T-90MA's in CMBS have 2A46M-5 or 2A82? 

 

The cannon on the T-90AM is the 2A46M-5, you can read about all vehicles in CMBS in ChrisNDs exellent Black Sea Manual (p. 102)

[BTR]

The cannon on the T-90AM is the 2A46M-5, you can read about all vehicles in CMBS in ChrisNDs exellent Black Sea Manual (p. 102)

 

Looking at it now, thanks. 

[akd]

Remember T-90AM in game is T-90SM with a domestic name. No T-90AM actually exists, nor do the Russian ground forces have any intention of acquiring T-90AM in the future. Our hypothetical inclusion can assume that with hostilities imminent, a foreign contract production line was redirected to the ground forces.

On M829A4, I've read speculation that RHAe penetration may not have increased vs. M829A3, but rather the focus has been on improving performance against composite armors, heavy ERA and active protection systems, which is why relatively old Relikt is not likely to defeat it. This makes sense as it is believed that M829A3 has already maxed out projectile L/D ratio for the gun, so what is left is the change the projectile composition and how it interacts with various defenses (rather than simple plate).

Be aware that Russia recognizes Relikt is not current generation tech and is not putting it on Armata or any other combat vehicle in service. Instead Armata will have a new generation of ERA and/or NERA/NxRA composite armor.

Edited January 11, 2015 by akd

[Vanir Ausf B]

There are two things I can extrapolate from that - one is that M892A3 (if it is included in CMBS) cannot penetrate T-90MS, and that a penetration with M892A4 isn't all that "sure" as some might believe.

I don't know about in reality, but in my experience it is a sure thing in-game.

[akd]

There are some parts of the front turret array that may stop M829A4, particularly areas that have nearly 900mm LOS of armor behind Relikt ERA. Even if M829A4 is optimized against newer ERA, that doesn't mean that it is totally ignored.  Likely M829A4 would sacrifice some of its max penetration potential in exchange for preventing destabilization (and resulting huge loss of penetration potential) by reflecting plates.  Versus latest penetrators, Relikt is likely to offer reduced protection, e.g. instead of 50% reduction of behind ERA penetration, you might only get 10-20% reduction.

 

Unfortunately, these extremely well-protected areas on the T-90A turret don't correspond to center of mass, so unless you push the range up or target the tank somewhat off-angle, you are unlikely to see them hit.  Sadly the hull armor scheme is just not that effective, so you really don't want to be caught hull-up by an Abrams at any range.  T-90s hit near center of mass from straight on are more likely to get penetrated.  But so are Abrams.

[antaress73]

How did you guys at battlefront estimate the M829A4's performance since its not in service yet ? Maybe akd is right, decreased overall performance but less loss of effectiveness against relikt

Edited January 12, 2015 by antaress73

[akd]

I am not Battlefront and (AFAIK) only Charles knows the assumptions about M829A4 built into the game.

Edited January 12, 2015 by akd