AXIS : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[Bil Hardenberger]

named area of interest (NAI) - A point or area along a particular avenue of approach through which enemy activity is expected to occur. Activity or lack of activity within an NAI will help to confirm or deny a particular enemy course of action.

FM 101-5-1 Operational Terms and Graphics

This image lays out the situation as it presently stands, objectives are in amber. I have placed four NAIs on the map of areas that I believe could be hiding enemy troops.

NAI 1 and NAI 4 - Reverse slope positions for the Spur (Right) and the S Ridge (Left) objectives. It is highly possible that GaJ has units in these positions in order to catch me as I attempt to capture these objectives. He knows that I will have to come over the top in order to secure them. If there are units on these NAIs then that would explain the few enemy forces I have encountered to this point in the battle.

NAI 2 and NAI 3 - Reverse slope depressions that could hide mobile counter-attack forces.

[kohlenklau]

Bil,

NAI?

Dang!

If only Custer woulda had you at Lil' Big Horn.

Mighta worked out a bit different...

Sincerely, you ratchet up the seriousness of this game and I think this AAR is your best so far.

GO BIG GREY!

[Vark]

Going to get interesting as GAJ is gradually compressed into a more restricted area, he will not be able to trade so much space for time now. Rather like playing battleships, NAI*, miss, NAI** hit!

[John Kettler]

Vark,

Tut! tut! You've obviously not followed the breaking Beta Leaks™. Had you done so, you'd realize that Gustav Line features the very latest wargame development: the MMD (Moving Map Display). As Bil gets closer, GreenAsJade backpedals, whereupon the map scrolls to allow him room for a fighting withdrawal to the next position. The designers are still working on the knotty problem of what should happen to Santa Maria Infante and Tame when this occurs. Some feel they should be left as is, but others point out that this, in their view, unfairly exposes VLs to easy capture. Of course, the reply is that if the villages get moved, the Italians will totally come unglued over the wholesale trampling of boundaries going back centuries, resulting in vendettas likely to be still running when the world ends. Not our war, though! Also, note that if Bil simply ceases advancing, then GreenAsJade will be forced to stay and fight. But first, Bil has to find him!

Bil,

A courier is here from some guy named Guderian, Inspector-General of the Panzer Troops. Why? You really need to stop these experimental ventilation mods on the 251s. For one, the mods are crude, with appalling levels of fit and finish wholly not German. For another, they are not standardized. "Vee shall NOT have die Halbkettenfahrzeugen mit die randomen holen im panzer stahl!" Got all that? Oh! You had asked fur eine Moebelwagen? Eine grosse Landkraftwagen is right behind the courier. There's a big stencil of a globe and the legend "Wir moveren das Welt!"

I freely confess I'd never encountered an NAI before, never mind 4. Am not sure which is scarier. Your firepower or your methodical and merciless way of handling it? Am betting you'd be a tough chess opponent. Fortunately, wargaming found me at 12, so I never got properly sucked into the chess vortex.

Regards,

John Kettler

[slysniper]

Bil,

If only Custer woulda had you at Lil' Big Horn.

Mighta worked out a bit different...

Custer, No way, he would not have listened. He proved that in RL

[ForwardObserver]

That's interesting - in CMFI, I find the exact opposite. US Squads are big, which is good, but are all armed with rifles, except for the BAR man. My US squads are always being outshot at 200 meters or less by Panzergrenadier squads with two MG-42s and 1 (or 2?) SMGs. And at closer range, the SMG heavy HQ squads are deadly.

I like the US squads in CMBN better - there tends to be more cover, which allows the larger number of men in the US squad to count - a squad or two in what I think of as "line formation" behind bocage can pretty much dominate the field on the other side and generally outshoot any smaller German squads trying to set up a similar force behind another hedge.

Well, I don't find much of a difference between the US Squad in CMBN and in CMFI: the size (and ability to break down into either 2 or 3 elements) is the same and they're armed with Garands. Which is a fine weapon, greatly superior (ROF-wise) to the German standard issue rifle.

Sometimes I find myself bolstering US Squads with an extra BAR team, though. I think this eventually became standard practice by late 1944.

[Hister]

Bil mentions a design document further up..post 300.

Read the forum and you'll understand peoples posts:)

I know, I've read that but don't understand weather you have any knowledge on this design document, weather it is CM related or not, etc. or you are just joking around.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Eighteenth Minute

Well my little mortar fire, if it did nothing else got GaJ's attention as the tank that I had a contact on in town reversed out of position this turn. So, its another M10.. also note that another UI armor contact has appeared nearby (right side of this screen).

So now I have 4 armor contacts, two of which I know are M10s.

Left Side

On the left, my left-center recon from 2nd Platoon is getting very close to Hill 109. I am firing some smoke on the M10 positioned in Tame so I can get some PzG's onto this objective and over the ridge to get a peek at NAIs 4 and 3.

Also on the left, 1st Platoon has been doing a recon in force on the left side of the ridge road (the ridge at the top of this image). The left side of the map seems pretty thin on defenders so far... but there are a lot of places he could still have units stashed.

Right Side

On the right side the Right Tit Sniper (for lack of a better name) came into view again.. so, he is trying to take out my scout. One of my teams fired at and pinned this team, which promptly disappeared from view. So the hunt continues.

Also on the right side an MMG team appeared firing at one of my halftracks.. other than bouncing a few rounds off the exterior, and getting one inside there was no damage. This team's position is under the view of several units, including my Brummbar and Jpz IV.. I will try to pin it, to keep it from dislodging (like the MG team on the left did) while the Brummbar takes a shot. Last turn I did have a halftrack lose a gunner to some incoming fire.. I suspect it was this team that did the firing.

This is what I had hoped would start to happen on the right.. I want GaJ to engage me at long range with as many of his units as possible. I am really surprised that there aren't more defensive positions though... this team would be much tougher if it had been in foxholes.

[womble]

I am really surprised that there aren't more defensive positions though... this team would be much tougher if it had been in foxholes.

It would probably have gotten spotted faster and been bear-food sooner if it had been dug in, I reckon.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Halftrack Kills - Analysis

Something was bothering me with the death of my two halftracks on turn 17 that I just had to go back and do a proper analysis of what happened. I was writing with emotion I think when I stated that it must have been the AA that killed them.. there was a lot of fire going on and I should have taken a step back before committing to that bogey man theory. I have been expecting it to make an appearance... sorry for that shot from the hip.

First of all I had noticed this little impact during the intial turn review but its importance did not strike me until I viewed the turn again... I thought this was a light mortar round.. but after further review I believe this was a round from whatever killed my halftracks that fell short.

There was a 12 second pause from this round (only one round... not a series of shots that you would expect from an AA mount) until the next shot, the shot that killed both tracks.

There was a further 11 second pause from that kill shot until another round impacted the fore halftrack.

Taking the view out and connecting the dots it is clear to see that whatever killed these vehicles had to be at a higher elevation, or else the rounds would not have impacted the second halftrack.

The long reload times indicate either a tank or an ATG... and if you stretch the line out it actually falls into the zone where the UI tank is located behind Hill 172... so perhaps on that ridge sits another tank or an ATG?

[Wodin]

This is why Bil is my tactical wargame hero\Icon!

[Vark]

Hmm, wonder if this is kosher? Bit too analytical, during the heat of battle, unless you bought an elite statistician with your points! Part of CM, for me, has always been the WTF moment, and desperately trying to work out why your prized piece of armour is a smouldering heap! Once wondered why my overwatch Panther did not fire, only to notice the dreaded skewed turret and a burning SU-85 on a hillside!

[James Crowley]

Is there not a case to be made that a lot of the intelligence being gathered by both sides (and this is a game engine thing, so applicable to all CM players) is being obtained from decidedly un-kosher sources.

Bills 'Kublewagen' man is a classic case in point. A lone soldier, a long way from other friendlies, not in C&C, with no radio and no viable way of communicating with his comrades is, non-the-less, providing a lot of vital intelligence which realistically he shouldn't be able to.

I do wish there was some way of severely limiting both the orders that can be given to units not in C&C (to the point of not being able to give any) and the information that they can provide to the player in what is, IMO, a completely unrealistic manner.

Probably very difficult to do; assuming that there is any desire to do so in the first place.

[John Kettler]

James Crowley,

There are certain games (ACW, Napoleonic) in which no order may be issued to a unit until a courier physically traverses the distance from the spotting unit to report to the commander. Either that, or there have to be other ways of passing the intel, such as signal flags or heliograph. While Borg spotting is out, the force commanders in CMBN and CMFI still know entirely too much about who's where and doing what. In turn, that allows them to make overly informed decisions and operate with far greater combat clarity and precision than was the case.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ChrisND]

The god-like view of the player over everything and the information flow that comes from that is an inherent "flaw" that's never going to be fully solved without removing the player (thus defeating the purpose of this being a game) or crippling the ability to just play and enjoy the game. At some point we just have to accept that the simulation is never going to be both perfectly realistic and playable.

[Vark]

God I hope we never get to full realism, I want to see my sons 10th birthday! The main limitation would be the still pretty feeble AI which all games still have, and Cm's is better than the majority, so no realistic autonomous decisions can be played out. As has been said the balance has to between playability and 'realism', but I do find the CM2 C2 system allows far too much flexibility, especially when gathering intelligence.

[James Crowley]

The god-like view of the player over everything and the information flow that comes from that is an inherent "flaw" that's never going to be fully solved without removing the player (thus defeating the purpose of this being a game) or crippling the ability to just play and enjoy the game. At some point we just have to accept that the simulation is never going to be both perfectly realistic and playable.

'Fully solved' is, I agree, highly unlikely. And of course it is a game and, as such, will have inherent limitations on reality.

However, moving closer to disallowing players full control of units out of C&C ought, IMO, to be a goal in a 'realism' based game. More importantly, limiting info received from it should also be a goal.

Moving from 'borg spotting' to non-borg spotting was an important step in ramping-up reality. It seems a shame that we can't move it up another notch. As I said, I'm not sure how feasible that would be. Just musing.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The god-like view of the player over everything and the information flow that comes from that is an inherent "flaw" that's never going to be fully solved without removing the player (thus defeating the purpose of this being a game) or crippling the ability to just play and enjoy the game. At some point we just have to accept that the simulation is never going to be both perfectly realistic and playable.

The only way is the oft-discussed "multi-multi player" mode where each side has multiple human players each commanding only part of his side's forces. But I think that is unlikely to ever happen. In addition, BFC has said many times that they have no intention of ever making CM a "command level" game where the the player assumes the role of a single high level commander. In CM the player is the leader of every unit. For better or worse that is the nature of the beast and I think most people have gotten over it.

[noob]

I would like to see BF allow the camera to be locked at eye level for the duration of a game. That would add a significant level of realism with the minimum amount of programming. It would also discourage the use of the target tool for checking LOS, and encourage people to use their judgement more.

[sburke]

I would like to see BF allow the camera to be locked at eye level for the duration of a game. That would add a significant level of realism with the minimum amount of programming. It would also discourage the use of the target tool for checking LOS, and encourage people to use their judgement more.

I can't imagine how difficult it would be to play that way. Time consuming, confusing and no way could you run a large scale battle like that in a normal lifetime. Aren't you also propounding huge maps with sweeping armor engagements? Wouldn't that give you a migraine headache doing both of these. It is giving me one just to think about it.

[Michael Emrys]

I do wish there was some way of severely limiting both the orders that can be given to units not in C&C (to the point of not being able to give any) and the information that they can provide to the player in what is, IMO, a completely unrealistic manner.

Well sure, but...

Probably very difficult to do; assuming that there is any desire to do so in the first place.

I assume so, because the desire certainly exists. In a game such as this, that is an obviously desirable feature and quite a few players have called for it.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

In addition, BFC has said many times that they have no intention of ever making CM a "command level" game where the the player assumes the role of a single high level commander. In CM the player is the leader of every unit. For better or worse that is the nature of the beast and I think most people have gotten over it.

For me, that is actually one of the things I like about it. It's about as close to actually having my feet on the battlefield as I want to get.

Could I love a command level game? Depends on the game and how it is implemented, but I can't think of any over-arching reason why I wouldn't.

Michael

[noob]

I can't imagine how difficult it would be to play that way. Time consuming, confusing and no way could you run a large scale battle like that in a normal lifetime. Aren't you also propounding huge maps with sweeping armor engagements? Wouldn't that give you a migraine headache doing both of these. It is giving me one just to think about it.

I played H2H PBEM's like this using CMx1 and it was amazing. It forces you to keep things simple, and makes high ground more important. Also, increasing confusion increases realism IMO

[newlife]

Umm, how's the battle going Bil?

[Wodin]

I always chuckle when people want uber realism when it comes to FOW and command. If you had that you may aswell get rid of the 3D graphical aspect..and have a planning map with counters of last known position and all info comes in by runner either verbally or written note..oh and through radio..you'd then update where the units are on the planning map.

In the current format it would be extremely difficult to play and the fun factor really goes out the window. Careful what you ask for.

A game I work\test at the moment has very realistic FOW and it's a very acquired taste. Not for control freaks..or those who like even a medium amount of control in their games.