AXIS : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[Michael Emrys]

But then again, there are places in Germany or Holland where I've read the undergrowth was nil and you could actually see quite a distance along the neat rows of tall evergreens.

Yes, tree farms rather than true forests. I imagine the undergrowth is cleared as extra protection from fire. The same practice can sometimes be observed in some parts of the US as well. This can be modeled in CM in the same way that orchards are.

Michael

[c3k]

^^^

I'm not sure if they existed in the time frame of WWII, but you can drive through the German countryside and see large forests consisting of neat rows of pine trees. Call it a farm (are they being grown specifically for their wood?), or a "greening" initiative, regardless, the LOS along the horizontal, vertical, and diagonal rows is almost totally uninhibited. (Lot's of trails for biking and walking utilize these tree stands/woods.)

Again, I don't know (and doubt) if they existed in WWII. Firebreaks certainly did. Additionally, the Continental powers specifically kept woods in strategic locations to aid in defense. Note the ability to defend in woods that they gained in WWI. Undergrowth and trees were a large help in defense, even after obliteration by artillery.

But enough of that: MOAR attack!

[Andrew H.]

Yes, tree farms rather than true forests. I imagine the undergrowth is cleared as extra protection from fire. The same practice can sometimes be observed in some parts of the US as well. This can be modeled in CM in the same way that orchards are.

Michael

Some natural pine forests don't have much undergrowth once the trees reach a certain height: the pine needles make the ground acidic in a way that inhibits the growth of underbrush (plus the taller trees make it dark near the ground). You can see this in parts of the Black Forest as well as in some pine forests in the US.

[Michael Emrys]

^^^

I'm not sure if they existed in the time frame of WWII, but you can drive through the German countryside and see large forests consisting of neat rows of pine trees. Call it a farm (are they being grown specifically for their wood?), or a "greening" initiative, regardless, the LOS along the horizontal, vertical, and diagonal rows is almost totally uninhibited.

I read a book about 30 years ago by a company commander of US infantry who in part described fighting in such an environment, so yes they did exist prior to and during the war.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Some natural pine forests don't have much undergrowth once the trees reach a certain height: the pine needles make the ground acidic in a way that inhibits the growth of underbrush (plus the taller trees make it dark near the ground). You can see this in parts of the Black Forest as well as in some pine forests in the US.

That certainly true among the old growth redwoods that have been preserved in northern California. As I recall, spotting of a couple hundred meters would be possible.

Michael

[c3k]

That certainly true among the old growth redwoods that have been preserved in northern California. As I recall, spotting of a couple hundred meters would be possible.

Michael

One word: Ewoks.

(Now rinse out the bile...)

[MikeyD]

Regarding trees, lets recall 1940s Sicily/Italy we're still talking wood stoves. Much underbrush would be trimmed back simply due to generations of locals collecting firewood to cook the evening meal over, or from goats and sheep grazing young shoots before they could grow. Areas around villages would be picked clean. Modern landscape picts look downright lush compared to the olden days, due almost entirely to fuel oil heating and a lack of family-owned grazing animals.

[JonS]

I believe that's largely a function of how intensively the plantations are managed. Around here pine plantations are generally utter pants to try and move through tactically. There can be large patches of scrub and blackberry, and the branches pruned from the pines are usually left in an ever growing tangled mess. The plantations are also usually on crap ground that's not much use for anything else - steep, cut with ravines and deep streams, etc. LOS can be a hundred metres or so, but usually it's a lot less than that. I hate working in pine plantations like that. It is my understanding that the Huertegen was mostly like this.

On the otherhand, there is a particular plantation that I've been to several times which is, for whatever reason, very 'tidy'. The prunings are always removed and because it's basically planted on sand dunes there isn't much secondary growth. In fact, there's practically none. That's a very nice plantation to walk through - it's like a big, rolling, open field, except that it's pleasantly shaded. It is my understanding that a lot of the big state forests in Germany - like the ones fought through during Op VERITABLE - were like this.

[dumrox]

It also depends on where in the 25 year or so cycle a particular plot is in. I was cruising timber with my brother in law this weekend on their north Florida farm. There were sections that had been recently thinned and burned and you could see clear through them, easily 200m. You wouldn't want to be a deer walking through those trees. Other areas that hadn't been thinned and still had all the undergrowth blocked visibility at ground level within first 30m or so.

[sburke]

Bil, we are talking tree farming for crying out loud! Shoot something.

[kensal]

Bil, we are talking tree farming for crying out loud! Shoot something.

[Heinrich505]

Bil,

Pretty dramatic series on the ATG destruction. The symbol of a AT gun kinda looked like an unhappy face, especially when that freaking Brumbär round caused the red crosses to grow. The pics are fantastic.

I am continually struck by how open the terrain is, compared to the claustrophobia I am experiencing with the hedgerows. Your advancing troops seem so exposed, with only the dips and rises in the terrain for cover.

Oh yes, and Winslow Homer captures the sea most dramatically.

Enough on art - c3K is foaming again.

Am following your AAR with great interest, as always.

Heinrich505

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bil, we are talking tree farming for crying out loud! Shoot something.

Yes you guys are really pitiful. I give you an opportunity to talk tactics and you jump on the trees.

Sad very sad.

[ForwardObserver]

But then again, there are places in Germany or Holland where I've read the undergrowth was nil and you could actually see quite a distance along the neat rows of tall evergreens.

If you stand right at the edge of the woods and perfectly aligned with the "grain" of the plantation.

From a distance, the (vertical) pattern created by the trees and slight differences in elevation can easily break up the shape of a tank or an AT gun, and make it very hard to spot. Add to that adverse lighting conditions and the stress entailed by being exposed to enemy fire, and then we get a good assessment of how easy is to spot anything inside a clump of trees.

Regarding undergrowth, MikeyD has a good point. One big problem in the Mediterranean area (Italy, Spain, Southern France) is that nobody "takes care" of forests by using the undergrowth as an easy source of fuel, increasing the chances of big fires. Yet I reckon it would be uncanny to find forest undergrowth to be reduced to a minimum unless the area was nearby to a heavily populated area.

And, provided enough time, it doesn't strike me as far fetched to dig up a few bushes and re-plant them in a way that suits military purposes. I have a recollection of reading about German Landwehr in the early 80s being quite adept at doing that to conceal positions for ATGM systems. I think it's unlikely that their grandparents were less adept at doing so.

[Michael Emrys]

Bil, we are talking tree farming for crying out loud! Shoot something.

We want bloodshed! We want bloodshed! We want bloodshed! We want...

Michael

[newlife]

I can't speak to Sicily, but the Tuscan farm I worked on used copse wood for fuel. Certain types of trees will send up multiple small trunks after the main trunk has been cut down. (Copse wood). So it looks really raged and untended, but in reality its their preferred style of maintenance. I don't think we split anything larger than 6 inches, versus the full trees we cut down in America for firewood. This makes the Tuscan woods very dense without a lot of long range visibility folks are mentioning from Germany. I have no clue whether the Tuscan woods applies to Sicily or the southern boot.

[Andrew H.]

It also depends on where in the 25 year or so cycle a particular plot is in. I was cruising timber with my brother in law this weekend on their north Florida farm. There were sections that had been recently thinned and burned and you could see clear through them, easily 200m. You wouldn't want to be a deer walking through those trees. Other areas that hadn't been thinned and still had all the undergrowth blocked visibility at ground level within first 30m or so.

Timber grog!

[Michael Emrys]

I have no clue whether the Tuscan woods applies to Sicily or the southern boot.

I doubt it. Sicily and Calabria are in virtually a different climate zone from the rest of Italy. Sicily in particular is probably more akin to northern Algeria and Tunisia. There is also the cultural differences between northern and southern Italy, which at the time of the war were not minor.

Michael

[sburke]

There is also the cultural differences between northern and southern Italy, which at the time of the war were not minor.

Michael

They aren't minor now. I expect periodically the division the country comes up every now and then, Entering the EU I remember N Italy talking about dumping S Italy as the economic drag on the economy.

Okay enough SHOOT SOMETHING!

[herr_oberst]

They aren't minor now. I expect periodically the division the country comes up every now and then, Entering the EU I remember N Italy talking about dumping S Italy as the economic drag on the economy.

Geo-political grog!

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Eleventh Minute

Thought I would show the pillbox that I have a shaky spot on.. it is sitting on a little spur that juts out on the outskirts of S. Maria Infante. It is sitting in the open as you can see.

On the Right Tit the 3rd Squad continues to work around the base of the hill. Several mortar rounds land on the Right Tit this turn causing one more casualty. Hmmm.. I cannot tell where those rounds are coming from.. but I suspect the S Ridge as the hills along this ridge have a great view of this objective.

I have always planned on placing the Elefant on one of the tits.. so I am moving it to the Left Tit this next turn. Nice view of the S Ridge from up there.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

It's a good thing it's your Elefant. Were it mine, I can guarantee it would already have Bogged or maybe even become Immobilized by now--on dry ground--with its gun pointed somewhere useless, naturally. But isn't that the way of CM?

Regards,

John Kettler

[$Pec5]

Hey Bil, how fast does that elephant move on that ridge road with a quick order? Does it slowly lumber into position even with a quick order or can it achieve a reasonable speed (I'm not talking Kubelwagen fast, but at least faster than jogging infantry)?

[Bil Hardenberger]

It moves along at a fair clip. Faster than jogging infantry for sure.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Twelfth Minute

My troops on the Left Tit had fanned out in order to find the bastards who fired on me a few minutes ago. Well turns out it was a sniper after all.. he skedaddled and disappeared down the slope.

On top of Hill 130 I have pulled the Brummbar back and out of view and have an HQ team moving up in order to call some mortar fire down on the Spur.

Got a firm spot on the bunker this turn... I find the orientation interesting... I had expected it to be oriented to cover both the approach behind the Spur on the left in this image and the road itself... turns out it is oriented to only cover the ridge road.