PC Gamer review

[ClarkWGriswold]

Just a question, when people talk about a poor UI, do they mean it is hard to get information or giving orders? Or do they feel there is a lack of information?

Speaking for myself personally, I think the CMBN UI fails at both:

Information is very difficult to come by because you can only get info on a unit by selecting the unit. If a unit is not selected, the most info you can see about them is unit type (sometimes), general location, and you get an indication when a casualty is taken (if the unit is on screen when it happens). Ammo loadout, total casualties, morale, fitness, special weapons, split squads, etc. are not shown unless you specifically select a squad.

Giving orders can be a big hassle as well. Just look at the number of threads have we had concerning the order in which things must happen for a unit to ingress/egress a halftrack during a turn. It's confusing as hell and there's no real indication of how it's supposed to be done to make it work. The same thing is true for obtaining weapons from halftracks. Two squads that are next to each other can share ammo, but to get ammo from a halftrack you have to get inside, then wait a turn to acquire and exit. It doesn't make sense! We don't have armor covered arcs, so it's difficult to tell your tank to disregard the one crew member that's running around in lieu of a enemy armor that's approaching. The way that deploy/undeploy is handled is confusing. It would be a huge improvement if there were a "Deploy" text on the waypoint, just like the "Pause" text. Even the basics like camera control and unit selection is made much more difficult and finicky than it should be. For instance, there's no way to turn off scrolling when the mouse cursor reaches the screen edges. Alternatively, there's no way to turn off scrolling using click+drag if you prefer to use the screen edges. So, both systems are always enabled and you end up fighting one or the other, rather than being able to choose which works best for you. Scrolling with the keys and "aiming" with the mouse works so poorly that I gave up on it. This is made doubly bad by the fact that the left mouse button is used for so many actions. You use it to select units AND to plot waypoints AND to drag the camera location. So, say you want to move a unit. You click the unit and then select Quick. The next leg of the move you want to go to a spot that's off screen. If you want to drag the screen using the mouse (the only way I've found that's acceptable) you have to right click to DEselect your movement order, then click and drag, then REselect your movement order to plot your move. Very cumbersome. And since you can no longer drag waypoints, you can't simply select a handful of units and then fine tune their orders. You have to move each one separately. It's tedius. I think there's pretty much universal agreement that the default hotkeys are terrible. It goes on and on. The game just isn't simple or intuitive to do what you want, even IF you know what you're trying to do (which you often don't because of conflicting design implementations).

[Bartokomus]

In addition a lot of indie developers license big-developer engines to build off. BFC not only has to put out a very complicated product, it has to create its own game engine from the ground up.

This to me is the crux of it, and probably always will be. We can all argue about the gui, hotkeys, and other features, but the simple fact is with a 5 man team and the massive expense of licensing a big name engine not a lot can be done imo.

I think the review conclusion is fair, though i haven't read it. To me the game *does* look very dated, the gui is one of the poorer i've used in 30+ years of gaming, and some of the design decisions suffer from a lack. But having said that no other game is in the same league and i'll continue buying CM games until the lobster module comes along...

[Vark]

Help! We need paragraphs now. Just for the the record, I'm not being an annoying grammar pedant but I want to read your post and see spots infront of my eyes when I do.

[stikkypixie]

Speaking for myself personally, I think the CMBN UI fails at both:

Ok, let me first start with the information thing. I too agree that information could be conveyed more effectively. But having played the CMx1 games for so long, it doesn't bother me as much. No game I play has a way of both presenting all unit information and still keeping it manageable. Me personally, I like my games with stuff exploding, and not looking like spreadsheets. Mind you I like my numbers, but not in a tactical setting.

As for the ammo sharing, for me this is intuitive. Two squads close together pool ammo together, but they DO NOT share ammo, as in no ammo is transferred. If you put a squad close to a halftrack, that squad will also pool ammo with the halftrack. The acquire and move orders could be better though.

As for the camera controls, I must have gotten pretty used to it as well. What I do is, select a unit (or units), ctrl+click to jump to a spot near where I want to place my waypoints, and give orders from there. I only use the edges for the move locally. It is actually funny, because I tried playing the Total War Shogun demo and I was very frustrated with the camera controls

[LJFHutch]

Well I came from the "standard" RTS's and the UI was a bit of a hurdle at first, but when I got used to it I couldn't go back. It's all relative, it's like saying a modern fighter jet has a horrendously confusing set of controls that doesn't convey information easily ... well yeah, compared to a car perhaps, but then again, a jet has to do a lot more complex stuff than a simple little car does

Likewise in a game where all you do is select a blue unit and click on a red unit to destroy it the UI can be far less cumbersome and much simpler than a game like CM, which not only has to have a lot more controls but also has to give you a lot more info. Again though, I agree that it could be streamlined a bit.

[Redwolf]

Just a question, when people talk about a poor UI, do they mean it is hard to get information or giving orders? Or do they feel there is a lack of information?

We once had what I think was a pretty productive thread on what is wrong with the UI, camera controls came on the chopping block first. I might have started it (don't remember), but a search for my name and "camera" should bring it up. It was basically fanboid into oblivion.

Apparently Steve has now declared a UI overhaul a major goal for future code changes. So why is this such a heated issue?

I also don't know why people bring up the out-of-memory issue which is entirely different. There is a simple way to get 1-2 GB more "memory" (actually virtual address space from the OS). I don't understand why it is asking too much wanting to know whether CMBF uses that way by default, and now win7 has a switch to force it upon an application. The way that Phil replied in the OOM threads indicated to me that he doesn't understand the connections between physical memory, virtual memory, virtual address space and swapspace/paging space. That's fine but I don't see BFC working with us here at all. I don't see anybody copying the game simply by knowing whether the window executable sets a simple flag or not.

[sfhand]

Well that is too bad but I will answer anyway because this is a 'forum' after all. Clarks sin was on Steps 4 and 5. Statements like "poor craftsmenship" and "Worst UI I have seen in a long time" really don't help and suggest some downright nasty things about BFC even couched by positives. Then outlining how this was all initial design errors that could have easily been avoided just adds to things.

As to 'postal', now that hurts...really. I thought I had some pretty pithy stuff going on there delivered in a slick style. C'mon the "same as a guy building a deck" didn't hit at any level? I think I am losing my touch...damn.

BTW the only person I was really going postal on was on Mr Redwolf who is a known entity from another dimension. I don't hang around the Public forum much anymore but if I do happen see any of that crew swing by for a quick hit based on absolute nonsense...well plug you ears.

Either way it would appear that we are not going to be friends which is unfortunate. Odd thing about the Internet, kind of like driving. I bet if we all met in person we would get along great but put us behind the wheel or a keyboard and we somehow become other people entirely.

I don't care one way or the other about the other forum or Redwolf. That doesn't mean I should behave like a jackass in this forum when I disagree with what they are saying (I am under the impression that is what the other forum is for)...

[hoolaman]

I welcome any scrutiny on my previous posts or opinions. Plse hit my handle and dig into my responses. You will find them (I hope) balanced and fair in my assessment of BFC's products and opinions.

Having re-read this thread, I see your posts actually are quite polite until your response to Redwolf. A bit unneccesary imo. You should be nicer, if only BFC would do the right thing and give him the source code to all their games, everything would be fine.

[Redwolf]

Having re-read this thread, I see your posts actually are quite polite until your response to Redwolf. A bit unneccesary imo. You should be nicer, if only BFC would do the right thing and give him the source code to all their games, everything would be fine.

Nah. I'll not be the mule to sort out all the problems from 1:1 modeling and 1:n control

Gamesquad only has a CM community because of things that happened here. No complaining.

[MG TOW]

Just a question, when people talk about a poor UI, do they mean it is hard to get information or giving orders? Or do they feel there is a lack of information?

I feel the right mouse button and scroll wheel is under utilized for sub-menu selection. So maybe giving orders IMO? But that's because I play alot of games that use such a system.

Back on topic.... the whole article really needed to sum up what a great game this is for getting so many things right.

[Doug Williams]

I always liked Computer Gaming World way better than PC Gamer. I was probably a continuous subscriber to CGW for two decades. Whatever happened to them?

As for the PC Gamer CMBN review....whaddya expect from a mainstream magazine like that? CMBN *is* hard to learn. Took me a while to just get to the point where I could play with any degree of success, and I was a big CMx1 fan.

[Marco Bergman]

73% is hardly an utter-piece-of-garbage score. Non-wargamers may even consider it too high, given the game's very steep learning curve and design.

I can't agree with the criticism of the magazine and reviewer. A reviewer's opinion is just that - their opinion. They don't normally just invent a figure, so it must be based on their experience of the game; a niche game which won't appeal to everyone, or necessarily meet their expectations. We may be disappointed with a score but that doesn't invalidate it for the person who gave it, or they would have given something else.

As for the magazine, things change. (Even games change... like this one.) They must be appealing to some market or they wouldn't still be in print. But again, should we trash them for moving out of our sphere of interest? I think not. Even if they did drop Coconut Monkey.

I'd like to urge a bit more tolerance. Everyone who posts here is interested in the game, probably owns it, and is hoping for improvements. Those are all good things, so why do we need flamethrowers? (Here, that is - we need them in the game.)

[Erwin]

There is a reason a "niche" game is called that. Given it's greater degree of complexity and steep learning curve compared to CM1, CMBN scoring 73% is pretty good for a mainstream review. If it was any higher, CM would not be a niche game almost by definition. Are any other niche games being scored higher is the question I would ask.

[Ranger33]

There is a reason a "niche" game is called that. Given it's greater degree of complexity and steep learning curve compared to CM1, CMBN scoring 73% is pretty good for a mainstream review. If it was any higher, CM would not be a niche game almost by definition. Are any other niche games being scored higher is the question I would ask.

I don't really follow your logic here. High scoring does not equal mainstream. Football Manager 2012 just came out is probably selling millions of copies and has a score of 85 on Metacritic. I couldn't imagine a more niche game though.

Would cite some other examples but new episode of The Walking Dead is on so gotta go!

[Erwin]

Football itself is a pretty popular sport in certain circles (I am told). I know that virtual Baseball etc is huge.

[Ranger33]

Fantasy baseball and football in general, are not really the same thing as a football management simulator that is more spreadsheet than game. WW2 is a very popular topic in all forms of media but that doesn't make CMBN a mainstream product, see what I'm saying?

[Wodin]

As I said before games should be scored against other games in their genre. CMBN wasn't. If it had been it would have been late eighties early nineties.

[Erwin]

"WW2 is a very popular topic in all forms of media..."

Don't want to get into a silly argument here, but WW2 is NOT popular in the way that mass entertainments like football, baseball and other types of contemporary entertainment are. I agree that CMBN should be scored against other games in their genre. So, what would you consider such "other games" to be?

(The only other ones I could think of that come close would be "Achtung Panzer" and the "Panzer Command" series. Both far inferior to the CM series. So, if those two games scored higher than CMBN then I would agree that would indicate imbalance.)

[PJMaybe]

Personally, I think this game could be hugely improved if it allowed some way of saving and replaying a battle with units from both sides visible.

I can't see how it would be so difficult as I am already able to save every minute of a turn game and then play them back. I'd just like to have them all joined up for watching the battle unfold in it's entirety (and with the enemy revealed throughout).

[Tarquelne]

I can't see how it would be so difficult as I am already able to save every minute of a turn game and then play them back.

Replay is very simple, but in wargames the simplest things become very difficult.

[PLM2]

Yeah it deserves better. Maybe some of the expansions will rate better.

If anybodys reading... as somebody who I don't think would typically love this game and I wrote a short paper on this game for a video game industry class...

CMBN has shortcomings. An interactive tutorial is essential for a game as unique as CM. The sound effects that came with the release IMO are largely sub par... they're largely just the old sound effects from CM... you shouldn't have to download somebodies sound mod to get decent sound effects. Another free game I have has better sound effects for the MG42. Also the lack of a convenient player-matching system is a real problem. These are things gamers expect. I know BF doesn't isn't making 100 million dollar games but you're only gonna cater to a niche if you can't offer some of the simple conveniences to complement CM's excellent gameplay.

There shouldn't be people on the forums asking about where they can play H2H... that doesn't settle well with any gamers nowadays no matter what genre you're into.

[hoolaman]

Fair points, but the PC Gamer review praised the printed tutorial, and didn't mention sound FX or player matching.

[Tarquelne]

There shouldn't be people on the forums asking about where they can play H2H... that doesn't settle well with any gamers nowadays no matter what genre you're into.

It's fine with me. I just dig out the ol' modem from under the Civ and Doom disks (great games, I hear there's a sequel for each) and find opponents on an internet BBS like the Blitz! It's no more than I expect, though the site does look a little strange. Maybe I should update my copy of Netscape.

[PLM2]

Even Civ V you can load up and find opponents now fairly easily. Fighting the AI is maybe 1/4th as fullfilling as taking on real players with... you know brains. And I like this game and have probably logged 100 hours on it, gone through all the campaigns but never played a human which is something i'd like to do. But without even a chat to meet up at... I'm not gonna revolve my day around getting a game going. Half the forums nowadays have a simple chat feature at least. It was easier to find opponents real time in CM1 before the unofficial chat room closed down on whichever site it was.

[LukeFF]

YThe sound effects that came with the release IMO are largely sub par... they're largely just the old sound effects from CM... you shouldn't have to download somebodies sound mod to get decent sound effects. Another free game I have has better sound effects for the MG42.

That's probably my biggest gripe with the game. Too many weapons share sounds in CMBM (i.e., small arms), and too many of them don't sound much like the real thing.