gunnersman Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 After reading the manual I finally caught on that the D model came before the A. After a cursory search I find nothing. Was this another trick to convince Hitler to approve an aspect of the Panther like the MP44? Curious minds want to know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Interesting question, I'd like to know, too. I also never understood why the Tiger was designated Ausf. E, then H and then nothing I believe... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 At least the reason for PzKpfw VI E coming before VI B was, I recall, for confusing Allied intelligence. I don't know if it worked then, but at least it does it now, 65 years later... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Grey Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Ah, the old mystery of German vehicle designations... truth is: no one really knows. There are only rumours and one wild guess after another. The most popular variant is that the plans got disarranged and the "Ausf.D" was accidentally named as such instead of "Ausf.A" - and when the engineers realized their mistake it was too late. Another one proposes that "Ausf.A" simply meant the first proven serial variant, though that wouldn't explain why the Ausf.G was next in line. It's also possible that those letters stood for something (and hence were just abbreviations), although that is a VERY wild guess. Bottom line after 70 years: We still don't know. P.S.: The Tiger H came BEFORE the Tiger E. Sorry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I checked some Panther development facts. Early prototypes for Panther were designated as Ausf. A, at least. The tank was then redesigned and Ausf. D was the first to enter service. Then a new re-design entered service, this one also named as Ausf. A but having nothing to do with the early prototypes. So who knows. I think they could have used a larger part of the alphabet, even Panzer III ends after N. How about Panther Ausf. Ü or StuG III Ausf. Ö? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetori Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Ah, the old mystery of German vehicle designations... truth is: no one really knows. There are only rumours and one wild guess after another. The most popular variant is that the plans got disarranged and the "Ausf.D" was accidentally named as such instead of "Ausf.A" - and when the engineers realized their mistake it was too late. Another one proposes that "Ausf.A" simply meant the first proven serial variant, though that wouldn't explain why the Ausf.G was next in line. It's also possible that those letters stood for something (and hence were just abbreviations), although that is a VERY wild guess. Bottom line after 70 years: We still don't know. P.S.: The Tiger H came BEFORE the Tiger E. Sorry. IF I remember correctly the H was part of the prototype designation and got carried to the full model for convenience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 All good stuff. It's kind of what I figured. One sounds just as good as the other. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Something about being bombed flat and then occupied by VERY unhappy Russians seems to have crossed up the archive a bit, who new? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 D = Deutschland "Yes, that sounds good. Produce it." A = Adolf "Oh, that's better. It will ignite the morale of the soldaten. Produce it." I'll come up with something for "G" when that question comes up. Ken (No, that was not a serious answer.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 D = Deutschland "Yes, that sounds good. Produce it." A = Adolf "Oh, that's better. It will ignite the morale of the soldaten. Produce it." I'll come up with something for "G" when that question comes up. Ken (No, that was not a serious answer.) Guderian? Goebbels? Gold? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Viajero Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Guderian? Goebbels? Gold? Gotcha!......... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The most common reason (excuse) for D followed by A given in decades of hobby literature was that it was deliberate disinformation meant to mess with the Russians' minds. My own pet theory is the Panther A naming convention somehow got caught up in the concurrent Panther II design program meant to replace the Panther. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greup Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 My own pet theory is the Panther A naming convention somehow got caught up in the concurrent Panther II design program meant to replace the Panther. I don't see the reasoning behind your theory. In an attempt to maximize standardization between the Tiger and Panther designs, MAN and Henschel were in Feb. 1943 commissioned to develop the improved designs designated Panther II and Tiger II. Only the tiger II went into production late '43. The few Panther II prototypes built were known as Ausf. F. (Source: Die deutschen Panzer 1926-45 by Ferdinand Maria von Senger und Etterlin) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Gotcha!......... Great...Just freakin' Great 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The few Panther II prototypes built were known as Ausf. F. Nope, Panther F and Panther II are entirely unrelated vehicles and were seperated by at least a year. Hobby kit manufacturers love placing the F model's schmalturm on Panther II chassis for some unfathomable reason. Panther II progam was initiated one month before the Panther A upgrade program, I believe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I've even heard they were produced by two different factories and had nothing to do with sequence. Who knows? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greup Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I checked some Panther development facts. Early prototypes for Panther were designated as Ausf. A, at least. The tank was then redesigned and Ausf. D was the first to enter service. What are your sources? Looks like I need more sources to compare! Early prototypes didn't bear the Panther name at all, according to my bible "Die deutschen Panzer 1926-45" by F.M. von Senger und Etterlin. In short: Daimler-Benz and MAN received contracts the 25th November 1941 to develop a tank. The name was VK (Versuchskonstruktion i.e. experimental construction or prototype) 3002 and it was to weigh in a 35 tons. After parallel development the MAN design (now 43 tons of weight!) was chosen, and that model (designated the VK 3002 MAN) was unofficially known as the Panther as development continued. No real clues to the meaning of A,D,G (+ F) models, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greup Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Nope, Panther F and Panther II are entirely unrelated vehicles and were seperated by at least a year. Hobby kit manufacturers love placing the F model's schmalturm on Panther II chassis for some unfathomable reason. Unfathomable? Not really, given that at least one fairly reliable source says that this was the intention and gives a reason for the fact that the only ever existing Panther II prototype does not have the Gerät 710 ("Schmal Turm 605") fitted. Regarding the F model and Panther II: Of my two main sources one [von Senger und Etterlin] mentions the Panther II with the model designation F while the other [Chamberlin & Doyle, ISBN 0 85368 202 X] mentions the Panzer V ausf F (Sd Kfz 271) or "PzKpfw V neuer art" (AFV V, new model) which is the new improved Panther with the narrow turret (there is also a photo of a standard looking chassis with the narrow turret. This indicates against that the F model and PII was the same - at least at that point in time). According the the latter only 8 Ausf F hulls were built in 1945 but the book states that only prototype turrets had been built at that time, so that's what's on the photo. The authors do state that both the ausf F and the P II were to have the narrow turret. Under the PII headline they furthermore states that two PII prototypes were ordered in 1944 but only one delivered in 1945 (with a normal turret ) - that's the unique Panther II you'll find at Fort Knox (or wherever it is today). From what I read I find it plausible that the PII were to have the narrow turret but given the fact that no such turrets were ever built (at least not in time for fitting one onto the PII prototype's hull) the one PII prototype has a normal P I turret. Conclusion: Model F seems to be a de facto refinement of the std Panther while the PII was the co-op Panther-Tiger "parts sharing" ordered evolution of the Panther. None of the two were fully implemented. The way I see it, the PII was related to the Panther I in the same way Tiger II was related to the Tiger I. Panther II progam was initiated one month before the Panther A upgrade program, I believe. Sounds plausible. MAN and Henschel got the commission to collaborate in order to achieve standardization between the Tiger and Panther in Feb 1943 (i.e. starting the PII and TII co-development) and considering that Panther D production began in November 1942 and Panther A production not until Aug 1943, you may well be correct. Oh this dorky German tankology goes to one's brain. It would be better if we had the actual game instead of nit-picking panzer bs on the forum. Mea culpa 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 What are your sources? Looks like I need more sources to compare! Early prototypes didn't bear the Panther name at all, according to my bible "Die deutschen Panzer 1926-45" by F.M. von Senger und Etterlin. From AchtungPanzer.com: "In late 1942, a small pre-production series of 20 tanks was ordered. This was the Null-Serie, or Zero Series. Those 20 tanks were designated Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausfuehrung A and were technically different from later Ausf A production models. All were lightly armored (with 60mm frontal armor) and armed with the early version of the 75mm KwK 42 L/70 gun." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 At least the reason for PzKpfw VI E coming before VI B was, I recall, for confusing Allied intelligence. I don't know if it worked then, but at least it does it now, 65 years later...Sig-Line Gold just there! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 How about Panther Ausf. Ü or StuG III Ausf. Ö? Well, personally I´d be very much in favor of that :-) Umlaut 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 About references. I have a soft spot in my heart for von Senger und Etterlin, Chamberlain & Ellis, Chamberlain and Doyle. They're the references I grew up with. But they're riddled with errors. Not their fault, they were working back then without original source material and using contemporary U.S. intelligence reports on German armor to fill in the gaps. Ouch! Over the last 7-8 years I've been worship at the feet of Thomas Jentz and Hilary Doyle German armor reference-wise. There's nothing that beats quoting original documents and only original documents. I've you want a thrill, go find the Schiffer military history "Germany's Panther Tank: Quest for combat supremacy" by Tomas L. Jentz. 150 page large format harcover. It ain't cheap but its literally German armor hobbyist porn. :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waycool Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 DAG and you cannot go wrong Ausf D A G and lastly they were prototyping the Panther Ausf F. And the handy link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 So if we combine Achtung Panzer and Wiki it seems to be more : A, A -> D1, D2, A (but not "D1, the Panther formally known as A", sort of D with a twist) , G, F, Panther II, F , E-50 Everyone clear on that ? ............... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrams Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 The Panther II was an up armored/redesigned Panther ... It was to have had many parts standardized with the Tiger II , including an 88 mm main gun ... The only known Panther II chassis is indeed at Ft. Knox at the Patton Museum ... It has a standard Panther turret (G I believe ... let me dig out my pics ...) ... Many of the Panther II upgrades were used on late model G Panthers ... The Panther F was a continuation of the "Standard" Panther series with a slightly upgraded G chassis with a smaller turret ring for the Schmalle turret ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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