Abrams Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 About references. I have a soft spot in my heart for von Senger und Etterlin, Chamberlain & Ellis, Chamberlain and Doyle. They're the references I grew up with. But they're riddled with errors. Not their fault, they were working back then without original source material and using contemporary U.S. intelligence reports on German armor to fill in the gaps. Ouch! I have volumes of those "early" research books ... Over the last 7-8 years I've been worship at the feet of Thomas Jentz and Hilary Doyle German armor reference-wise. There's nothing that beats quoting original documents and only original documents. I've you want a thrill, go find the Schiffer military history "Germany's Panther Tank: Quest for combat supremacy" by Tomas L. Jentz. 150 page large format harcover. It ain't cheap but its literally German armor hobbyist porn. :eek: Agreed !!! That book is THE German Armor Porn book .... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 So if we combine Achtung Panzer and Wiki it seems to be more : A, A -> D1, D2, A (but not "D1, the Panther formally known as A", sort of D with a twist) , G, F, Panther II, F , E-50 Everyone clear on that ? ............... Clear as mud. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 A, A -> D1, D2, A (but not "D1, the Panther formally known as A", sort of D with a twist) , G, F, Panther II, F , E-50 Ah. Panther II should definitely be before G and perhaps even before A, depending on how you're listing it. They originally though Panther D was a failed design which is why they were pushing Panther II - all because of the problems cause by those pesky Russian anti-tank rifles. Panther was saved simply by the invention of side skirt mounting brackets! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 I'll come up with something for "G" when that question comes up. G = Götterdämmerung 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrams Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Yes , Panther II was definitely before the G and A , and concurrent with the D ? ... basically ... and some II upgrades were incorporated into late war G units , the steel road wheels and other mods ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 ok ok ok ok ok I got it I got it ahem A, A -> D1, D2, maybe II, A (but not "D1, the Panther formally known as A", sort of D with a twist), more likely II, G, G-ish / II-ish , F, E-50 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrams Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Now you've got it !! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Is everyone taking notes here? There will be a test 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 After reading the manual I finally caught on that the D model came before the A. After a cursory search I find nothing. Was this another trick to convince Hitler to approve an aspect of the Panther like the MP44? Curious minds want to know. Not to get super critical.. but (MP) stands for Machine Pistol ( Maschinenpistole). The Stg44 was a Assault Rifle. Sturmgewehr (Sturm) meaning Assault, and Gewehr meaning Rifle. Its all good just lending a helping hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 But there was the designation MP43/MP44 for the StG44 to decieve Hitler. At least that's what I remember, cause Hitler didn't like the idea of a assault rifle, while troops on the frontline liked them alot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Hitler was like an interfering mother in law... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 But there was the designation MP43/MP44 for the StG44 to decieve Hitler. At least that's what I remember, cause Hitler didn't like the idea of a assault rifle, while troops on the frontline liked them alot. Even today the Germans call their Machine Pistols... MP5, MP10, UMP,as they did back in the day of the MP38 and MP40. Their Rifles or Gewehr's are still called the same thing today, like their G11. Technically the Stg44 is a Rifle.... it is the Great Grandfather of all Assault Rifles. Anyways its a small matter, some keep calling it MP43/MP44. Hitler stopped all rifle production due to Infighting.. he did not really know about the MP43 at first, but once discovered he let the program commence, and after it had positive results Hitler gave the ok with the program, in which he would test fire the SturmGewehr in July of 1944. So it basically went from MP43 (deception name) to MP44, then after Hitler fired it... It became the Stg44, its true nature of being a Rifle (Gewehr) however it was Hitler that was soo impressed he was the one that actually called it a StormRifle. It was then redesignated as the Stg44. Ever since then, we call all semi-auto Combat Rifles (Assault Rifles which is pretty much the same meaning as StormRifle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greup Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Over the last 7-8 years I've been worship at the feet of Thomas Jentz and Hilary Doyle German armor reference-wise. There's nothing that beats quoting original documents and only original documents. I've you want a thrill, go find the Schiffer military history "Germany's Panther Tank: Quest for combat supremacy" by Tomas L. Jentz. 150 page large format harcover. It ain't cheap but its literally German armor hobbyist porn. :eek: Thanks for the tip! I'll try to get hold of it - if nothing else so for completeness (though, I'm far from that nerd without much life outside of the SL/COI/COD series I once was) Just out of curiosity: What does it say re: PII dates? Was von S & E wrong on the Feb 43 date for PII initiation? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrams Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Panther II timeline according to Doyle/Jentz in their '97 Osprey Book , Panther Variants , 1942-1945 ... Hitler agrees to "up armoring" the Panther in Jan 1943 ( original Panther IIa ? , my designation ) First production scheduled for September 1943 . The only difference between the Panther IIa? and the Panther D was the armor thickness . Feb 1943 ,plans to re design the Panther II(a?) were drawn up to standardize with Tiger II (Panther IIb ?) March 43 , production of Panther IIb was set for early 44 ... By April/May 43 , interest in Panther II (a? & b? ) was gone ... Only 1 Panther II(b?) chasis was made .. which is at Ft Knox , KY , Patton Armor Museum ... I have seen and touched this ... it has a Panther G turret on it ... http://www.panther1944.de/en/the-last-of-their-kind/panther-ii.html http://www.generalpatton.org/ The Panther F ( often called the Panther II in older books in my collection ) was drawn up early 1944 ... It was basically a Panther G with the new "small turret " and more hull roof armor , sliding hatches instead of hatches on the hull , an MP44 ball mount in the front hull and all the mounts , ect needed to mount the new infra red night unit . Planned first delivery set for March 45 ... Something about bombs falling from the sky upset production http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=137097 http://www.portierramaryaire.com/fichas/panther_5.php 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greup Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Yes , Panther II was definitely before the G and A , and concurrent with the D ? ... basically ... Yes, if you by "Panther II" mean the Panther II project rather than any physical output from it. The D project started earlier and obvious design flaws in the produced Ds appears to be one of the reasons for the initiating of the Panther II project. Another reason, in a time of limited resources, was the need to unify production of the German MBTs by sharing similar parts/designs between the Tiger and Panther models. This lesson was learned in the late 1990ies by car manufacturers (like some models by Audi, Volkswagen, Skoda and SEAT sharing identical base plates ) Ah well, whatever... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Sergei, you stinky fish eating Swede want-a-be Surely you remember the cardinal rule of the German language.. I quote: "D before A except during May, or any tank equipped with an 88mm." Hence, the Panther had the D designation first. See Goebel's "The third reich and goldfish, which came first?" Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.