Erwin Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hehe... Well, we have a great book recommendation thread over at BoB for those who do still enjoy reading. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchenar Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Read some good WW2 books on small unit tactics...learn the basic fundamentals of combat...then try them out in the game... I am abit touchy about things at the minute. I recommended a Sim to someone who found the one he had abit to difficult. I even found the patch needed and emailed it to him..they bought it and then without any real practice declared with in two days he was misled and the Sim is the worse he has ever come across...for one the Sim is highly renowned and the sim he found to hard he says is easier...which anyone would tell you wasn't the case... Being accused of misleading him really pee'd me off....he wouldn't put in the practice and juts wirte the sim off as he wanted instant gratification... My point is a decent manual explaining the UI and editors etc is all thats really required... and maybe some youtube videos (Battle for the Bulge by Panther games released several training movies which went down really well)...after this I honestly feel that practice and learning through trail by error playing a small scenario is the best way to get to grips with a wargame...also read abit about warfare (at the particular scale and conflict) the wargame portrays Nonononononononono. You are very wrong. The game needs to explain how and why certain things happen or players end up just foundering about in the dark. See here for an excellent article on the problem (that focuses on operational wargames but is largely equally applicable to tactical level games like combat mission). Specifically: Those Who Can’t, Don’t Teach Every war game should have an in-game tutorial. Advanced Tactics, War in the East, and The Operational Art of War don’t. This, for me, is such a basic element of good game design that I’m constantly surprised when I see it violated. A game without a tutorial is like a movie without popcorn; like sex without foreplay; like a hamburger without French fries. A game without a tutorial is incomplete. Sure, let me skip the tutorial if I’m sure I don’t need it. But in a sufficiently complex game the tutorial can do so much heavy lifting that to skip it is madness. It can introduce you to the user interface. It can acquaint you with the basic controls of the game. It can allow you, as a software developer, to hide more advanced controls and still be confident that the user will be told where to find them. All three of the games I’m looking at in this article do “Tutorial by manual”. This means that they provide a “tutorial scenario” which you use by reading the manual and following along. This is inadequate on multiple levels. First, it means that you are told what to do instead of being shown what to do, which is less effective. Second, it opens the possibility that the player may go off-script. Going off-script is a vital part of learning how to play a game well, but is a big mistake during the early parts of a tutorial. Many games split the difference by tightly scripting the beginning few turns of a tutorial, and then at some point telling the player “OK, from here on out you are on your own.” Lastly, I have never seen a manual-based tutorial that adequately helped focus the player’s attention on what was important, as opposed to what is simply present. Advanced Tactics also ships with several “training scenarios” which set up simplified battles. For example, the first battle is on a featureless plain, with identical numbers of troops, but with one side using armor and the other using infantry. The next scenario is the same, only this time in forested terrain and giving the infantry player bazookas. The third scenario introduces artillery, and so on. This set of teaching scenarios did more to teach me about the game than the manual-driven tutorial. In my fantasy world, these scenarios would have been presented as an in-game tutorial that also introduced me to the various UI elements I needed to use to (for example) perform artillery attacks. The tutorials would have explained the effect that being out of supply has on a unit’s readiness. The tutorial would have explained how to generate political points and how to use them to create new headquarters, and how to transfer staff between them. As it is, I groped through the dark, eventually figuring all these things out. Despite what the abused customers of ultra-grognard developers might tell you, figuring these things out by yourself does not make you a better person. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 A game like TOAW or Combat Mission is not nearly as simplistic as Company of Heroes. A "walkthrough" of significant game concepts would take a very long time and probably not be incredibly clear. Most "significant game concepts" are not mechanics per se, either, but are strategies and tactics. The Company of Heroes tutorial does NOT provide you with strategies and tactics as I recall it... it walks you through an opening game to explain abstract mechanics and then railroads you into a fairly poorly constructed endgame. Almost all subtleties and nuances of the game are missed. And the game is so much less nuanced than a full wargame that it's embarrassing. The tanks have health bars. Also, TOAW and Combat Mission had ONE programmer (I'm guessing War in the East had two), where Company of Heroes had a fairly large team. Ditto the budget. I'm not sure where the resources were supposed to come from to produce these in-game tutorials. Should Norm Koger have been handed a sack of cash and a bunch of top-notch game programmers? Possibly, but he wasn't. No wargame developer that I'm aware of is a bunch of "ultra-grognards" that wants to abuse their customers. They make do with what they have. The person writing this article seems ignorant of a) the difficulties and costs of what he proposes and the production of the games he mentions (the production of TOAW is pretty well-documented). Poor research, poor conclusions. I don't disagree with his general point - games should be user-friendly - but to put a one-programmer game down for the "tutorial in manual" approach indicates that he needs to talk to a game developer instead of airing his untutored opinions on the internet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I don't think anyone can argue that a well made in game tutorial is preferable to a printed walk through. Given the time and resources I'm sure that BFG would love to create such a thing but I'm personally not willing to wait another 3 months or longer just to have a basic in game tutorial. Also keep in mind that as features are added or changed (something that BFG is very consistent about) then the tutorial(s) will need to be updated as well. As someone mentioned earlier, if you want to learn the UI mechanics and basic tactics, you can download the CMSF demo now and play it. Yes CMSF uses modern troops and equipment but basic small unit tactics haven't really changed that much in 69 years and there are also some excellent player made videos and well written tutorials for CMSF. Of course BFG or one of the beta testers would need to verify this but the biggest differences between CMSF and CMBN will be as follows. Range, accuracy and overall lethality of the modern day weapon systems. temperate(CMBN) vs Open desert(CMSF) terrain Command and Control is easier to maintain for blue forces in CMSF If you never played CMx1 and your only knowledge of tactical warfare is "call of duty" or "company of heroes" then you've got a little more to learn but to be honest, an in game tutorial wont make that much of a difference for you anyway other than to help you learn the interface which you can do now with the CMSF demo. In short, learn to play CMSF and you will have no problem learning getting into CMBN when it ships. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulverisor64 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 I do agree %100 that it would be beneficial to download and play CMSF to be able to prepare for CMBN. That however is how I discovered that there is a real opportunity for improvement for the upcoming CMBN. I am very much drawn to the World War 2 era and I love to try to relive what it must have felt like to be on the battlefield in this time of history. I am drawn to realism before I will try the easier to grasp alternative because games where you jump around, die and come back again don’t place you in a realistic historical frame of reference. I have to say however that I don’t have the patience to learn a foreign game interface where you spend half a day just learning how to move across the map. Once this is accomplished then you don’t have a clue in how to proceed from there. I might brave a couple games in which I get wiped out and ultimately conclude this isn’t very enjoyable or realistic; perhaps the game interface is still getting the best of me. I could ask a lot of questions to pick up better technique, but why not just make it easier on the end user. I would love to be able to install the game and proceed directly in completing the 1st guided mission. In this way none of the excitement of the game is abated. I’d so much prefer the feeling of being a field tactician rather than an interface tactician. There are absolutely good ways of achieving this, one of the thread suggestions was even to enlist a forum user to handle this detail which is a great suggestion because of the fresh perspective that this would bring. Regardless; there are ways to make this become a strength and not a weakness of this game series. I would applaud Battlefront for this, and what better game would deserve this. As for now it will be back to plodding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Nearly every game out there has a very similar way of moving around the 3d map...I haven't yet come across a game that I couldn't work out the basics of the UI within 20 mins or so...and moving around usually requires moving the mouse to the edge of the screen and holding one of the buttons to turn around and finally the wheel to zoom in and out..Achtung Panzer's UI is one that has come in for abit of criticism and yet to me there wasn't that many choices to work out and after about 10 mins it was easy. I look at the actions on CMSF and I can't see how they aren't self explanatory....moving around is like every other game pretty much...it's the tcatics and how to play that takes mastering and reading as much as possible will help especially any guide son the forum and AAR's... Not wanting to sound bad or anything but I'm surprised by people needing a sort of "dummies guide to" for many games...HOWEVER A game like GG War in the East does need a great tutorial due to the wealth of info and god knows how many tabs\screens etc there are....A game like CMSF has one screen to get to know and a set amount of actions to do on the screen... If you need to be talked through how and why something happens in a particular scenario then you need to get some basic tactical Know how...I suggest again finding some basic small unit tactical info, either through the net,book or even reading some AAR's or the CMSF tactics thread as you will still pick up some good tips...also you can't possibly explain every "how or why "that may happen during a scenario...you would end up writing a tactical dissatation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Nearly every game out there has a very similar way of moving around the 3d map...I haven't yet come across a game that I couldn't work out the basics of the UI within 20 mins or so...and moving around usually requires moving the mouse to the edge of the screen and holding one of the buttons to turn around and finally the wheel to zoom in and out..Achtung Panzer's UI is one that has come in for abit of criticism and yet to me there wasn't that many choices to work out and after about 10 mins it was easy. I look at the actions on CMSF and I can't see how they aren't self explanatory....moving around is like every other game pretty much...it's the tcatics and how to play that takes mastering and reading as much as possible will help especially any guide son the forum and AAR's... Not wanting to sound bad or anything but I'm surprised by people needing a sort of "dummies guide to" for many games...HOWEVER A game like GG War in the East does need a great tutorial due to the wealth of info and god knows how many tabs\screens etc there are....A game like CMSF has one screen to get to know and a set amount of actions to do on the screen... If you need to be talked through how and why something happens in a particular scenario then you need to get some basic tactical Know how...I suggest again finding some basic small unit tactical info, either through the net,book or even reading some AAR's or the CMSF tactics thread as you will still pick up some good tips...also you can't possibly explain every "how or why "that may happen during a scenario...you would end up writing a tactical dissatation. It depends on the person. Before playing the CC tutorial, I never heard of suppressive fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 ^thats why if you want to play tactical games then do abit of reading as you will really enjoy the many books out there. You would soon get all the basics to tactical warfare...many rules are common sense...expand you wargame hobby into an interest into military history...I've read memiors that put novels and movies to shame in excitement and action.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 ^thats why if you want to play tactical games then do abit of reading as you will really enjoy the many books out there. You would soon get all the basics to tactical warfare...many rules are common sense...expand you wargame hobby into an interest into military history...I've read memiors that put novels and movies to shame in excitement and action.... Why? I want to have a fun challenge. And there are many of those around. A decent tutorial can highlight what makes a game different from everything else that I can spend my time on. I don't want to read a book just to able to decide whether a game is worth my time or not. It doesn't have to be exhaustive, but the basic elements, the "notes that make the music" should be clear from the get go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Why? I want to have a fun challenge. And there are many of those around...... I don't want to read a book just to able to decide whether a game is worth my time or not. It doesn't have to be exhaustive, but the basic elements, the "notes that make the music" should be clear from the get go. You don't have to read a book to understand the basic elements. But if your interested in delving deeper into or becoming better at it then yes there are books, the net, these forums and as was pointed out (by MikeyD) in the post this, the game itself (CMSF) is and excellent teacher. Anyone who has played CMx1, TOW, ASL, CC, SP or any number of tactical level games and enjoyed them will have no problems understanding basic tactical concepts and should have no problems making the move to CMBN. The UI is different and will take some learning but as stated earlier it's very easy to pick up on and its basically the same UI that's used in CMSF so again there should be no problems, just download the CMSF demo and see for yourself. "BUT I DON"T LIKE POST WWII CONTENT !!" That's ok you don't have to, the demo has a training scenario that will get you familiar with all the basic commands so its all good and the best part is that no one will know if you decide to play CMSF and find out that you actually like it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I recall watching a PBS Frontline documentary on Afghanistan awhile ago. Marines arrive in their armored trucks, patrol down a street, take incoming fire and do what Marine infantry do. My thought while watching was 'My God, its just like CMSF!" Same roads, same fields, same types of cover, same combat ranges, same force size, same weapons. It was a bit unnerving, actually. My point is 'learning before playing' tactical tutorials rather miss the point of the game, CM's main feature is "learning while playing". The whole game is itself one giant combined arms combat tutorial. You learn the hard way how not to patrol down a street, then you learn by experimentation how to patrol down a street. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I don't think an in-game tutorial is required. But a better manual that explains what the game can and cannot do/simulate would be helpful. All that data in the current CM2 manuals is not that useful in helping learn how to play the game well. Eg: A simple description of what the in-game sniper can and cannot do (cf RL), also how artillery works/doesn't work like RL. Currently one can waste months of time figuring out issues and making dozens of posts here, that get in the way of enjoying the game. That's ok for grognards and milpros. But, that must limit the accessibility of the game outside of our niche group. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You don't have to read a book to understand the basic elements. But if your interested in delving deeper into or becoming better at it then yes there are books, the net, these forums and as was pointed out (by MikeyD) in the post this, the game itself (CMSF) is and excellent teacher. Understanding is not hard, no. But the player has to realize it's there to take it into account. If you have never ever played a tactical wargame, even the concept of morale and suppression have to be explained (they probably are in the manual). Even games like Total War at least tell you it's a high morale troops are good and that flanking is a good idea. Hell even shooters tell you where to point the gun what button to push. A tutorial is there for people who aren't familiar with the CM/Wargaming/Tactics yet. If you assume everyone's played the other games before, then why even bother with the manual? Yes playing is most of the fun, but until some of core mechanics are known, everything will just look like random events. I have Command Ops on my HDD (before I have never played a Operational scale game before), and I can assure you, if it weren't for the video tutorials, I would have no idea what is going on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You learn the hard way how not to patrol down a street, then you learn by experimentation how to patrol down a street. Yes, spot on. And...a beefy manual is a must to answer the questions that are bound to come up. We will not get an in-game guided tutorial with an advisor as that is just not in BFs budget. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I'm not against manuals....I too like a big old manual to read through...but I also know BF aren't a big developer so I give them some leeway...A manual explaining the basic principles and the UI is enough...we have a forum to ask questions and get tips.... See the forum as a big Q&A and a place that will give you far more info if you ask or search than any manual could. Also any newbie needs to start small...if you go for a big battle with all bells and whistles your asking for it to go t#ts up. Thats the way it is for any game. BF need to make sure there a a few small scenarios that slowly introduce new concepts like armour or arty etc etc. That way no one feels swamped. @StikkyPixie...I agree a basic manual explaining the UI is whats needed...and maybe some basic tactical advice....as MikeyD says the whole game is a constant learning experience...you really can't prepare people for every eventuality so they can fly through the scenarios no problem...it's a game of trail and error...even after you become a Vet at it...a well made scenario will throw you all over the place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredrock1957 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The whole game is itself one giant combined arms combat tutorial. You learn the hard way how not to patrol down a street, then you learn by experimentation how to patrol down a street. Thats the nail right on the head, and that is what will make the game great.... The best part is you can develop your own strategies that "may" or "may not work" depending on your opponent. Just like in real life. A well versed manual would be very helpful, but the best way to develop your own tactics is PLAY PLAY PLAY and then PLAY again... I myself cannot wait for the release... That is all... -FR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 A suggestion for those new to the system. For your early games, save after every turn and reload/retry differen tactics until you hit on something that works. Is it cheating? Sure. So what. You're new, you need to practice. Consider it a training exercise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJJ Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Thats the nail right on the head, and that is what will make the game great.... The best part is you can develop your own strategies that "may" or "may not work" depending on your opponent. Just like in real life. A well versed manual would be very helpful, but the best way to develop your own tactics is PLAY PLAY PLAY and then PLAY again... I myself cannot wait for the release... That is all... -FR 100% spot on, sir! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The latter half of this video (3:47 on) pretty much sums up my feelings on tutorials: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2454-Easy-Games Although the subject matter of the video is games that are far less complex than something like Combat Mission. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The latter half of this video (3:47 on) pretty much sums up my feelings on tutorials: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2454-Easy-Games Although the subject matter of the video is games that are far less complex than something like Combat Mission. Nice video. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 What an interesting video. I enjoyed that. Thanks for posting the link. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Kulin Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Years ago (2002) BFC published a book called the CMBB Strategy Guide (authored by Mark Walker) - I considered it an excellent resource that helped me get a handle on the game and general strategy/tactics to consider. It was worth every dollar in my opinion. Probably too much effort to pull something like that together in 2011, but something similar would be nice to have access to. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I did a search on this and came up with a thousand threads so please have patience if this was discussed before. Will we be able to use more than one monitor at a time? The idea of the tutorial caught my eye and thought it would be great if I could play the game on one monitor while scrolling through the pages of the manual on the other. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 "The idea of the tutorial caught my eye and thought it would be great if I could play the game on one monitor while scrolling through the pages of the manual on the other." Nice idea. We do not need an in-game tutorial. But, "typical" newbies who are not milpros or grogs are not going to have the patience to try scenarios over and over again for weeks or months till they "get it." I personally do not know any young folks with that sort of persistence any longer. It really comes down to whether there is any motivation to appeal to a market outside of milpro/grog. If not, then I agree, the need for user-friendly aids is mitigated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 The problem is that Combat-Mission is a bit more complex then most other "RTS" games. Now, i like complex games (simulations, wargames ect.) but i always look if there is a manual + ingame tutorial because it is a real pain to learn something just by try&error sometimes. If Battlefront wants to get some new players without any CM experience to play this then they better add some kind of ingame tutorial, and please something better then the CMSF tutorial ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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