Will there be a tutorial with this game?

[Paulverisor64]

I am someone who finds the going rough figuring out new games especially if the game is quite complex.

I downloaded the CMSF demo and even though the mission is a tutorial I find that there appears to be no guidance for getting started. I looked for documentation in the game manual but nothing appears specified towards the tutorial.

In the original series CMBB there was a written tutorial that walked you through a mission, and got you aquainted with the game mechanics.

In watching through the battle between Elvis and JonS it appears that there are many things to be aware of in order to play a rewarding game.

The easier it is to get up and running; the easier it is to get fully hooked on the game and recommend it to other friends.

Will there be a helpful tutorial with CMBN?

[Sgt_Grunt]

Try this walk through for CMSF...http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=90433

[scottie]

Hi there.

In my mind maybe this question can be divided up into two areas.

1) the interface stuff , what the options do, how to best utilize them etc.

2) understanding how to interact with the environment , how the game engine works.

Have you read this thread ?

"Why infantry combat in CMx2 is so different"

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=94572

I loved it , absolutely amazing gaining an understanding into the level of detail that BF have written. I dont think you can really get this stuff from a tutorial. I guess it a nutshell it follows real life. Having not read that thread I wouldn't have understood. I now play CMSF in a different way ... initially played it like i played CMx1.

Hope some of this info helps.

Scott

[Wiggum]

I can remember that CMAK had a great tutorial (a pdf text file + a special scenario) !

You had to read the text where everything was explained, how combat works and what next step you should take in the tutorial scenario for example.

Now youjust had to do what you were told and could see the effects ingame...great !

I hope the Normandy game will have a similar tutorial.

[Moon]

For CM:BN, we are going to refine the manual somewhat and address some of the issues that people (and testers) have been asking for since the CMSF manual. But the manual can only do so much, since it has to also cover the nitty-gritty stuff, so it can't be everything for everybody.

Luckily, one of the the testers from the beta team has put a lot of effort into creating a number of tutorials that hopefully will be included with the release (and partly in the manual, as well).

But either way, the community made tutorials are a great tool, and we're thrilled with how much effort people put into them. Definitely recommended reading. I'm sure we'll see them for CM:BN as well.

[Erwin]

The manual is an often forgotten part of the product done at the last minute when everyone is rushing out the door to go home.

However, I do appeal for a more useful manual than the CMSF tracts. While appearing to be packed full of useful info, in game terms very little of the CMSF manuals are useful in helping one be a better player. I would describe much of the content as "information candy."

A lot looks like it was copied from some military manual, which I can understand as it saves a lot of time. But, it's just not that helpful, especially for new players who haven't had the privilege of playing CM1 for 10 years.

A much more explicit tutorial coupled with hints on how best to use certain units would be helpful. (It took me 3 years and many, many posts here to finally figure out how best to use snipers, recon units etc...)

Also, the limitations of the game and the units should be addressed, so that players don't have to experience the frustration of using units as they would in RL only to find that they just don't function as in RL.

This is an entertainment game and of course there will be abstractions. I have heard it said that players must "learn from experience." But, there is simply no reason to have to spend years of learning in order to understand the game and play well.

(In another thread, this would yet again lead to talk about the invaluable CM1 in-game stats windows, but that's for another era...)

[gibsonm]

Well for what its worth there is a bunch of discussion happening internally (in a virtual sense) at the moment about the Tutorial and the Manual.

As has already been mentioned, yes there will be a Tutorial and yes the Manual is being rewritten and not just a search for “M1“ and replace with “Sherman”.

The main issue as always is do you commit resources to write a a massive all encompassing tome (that almost no one will read) or do you provide a smaller overview (less complex, cheaper to print, etc.) and let people explore to fill in the gaps.

No doubt we’ll soon find out how coin toss for that goes.

[Moon]

The manual is an often forgotten part of the product done at the last minute when everyone is rushing out the door to go home.

I can't speak for other developers, but that's certainly not the case with us. However, there are some practical limitations:

a) you cannot start to write the manual too early, or you'll end up rewriting 90% of it as the game develops, concepts are tweaked or designs thrown overboard. The main problem with the CMSF manual was in fact that we had started it too early while certain game engine elements were still in flux. This meant portions had to be left vague or were even misunderstood, or ended up being coded slightly differently than originally designed.

unless you are happy to wait half a year longer for the game while the manual is being written in meticulous detail (and of course we cannot use this time for development, because when things change, the manual has to change!), there is always a certain inherent urgency to get a manual done fairly quickly.

c) the manual cannot be everything to everyone. Everybody has their own issues they would like to see covered. People have different experience levels with the game. People have different areas that they understand better than others...

But the manual has to "work" for anybody, from the bloodiest novice who breaks open a CM game for the first time, to the hardened veteran. This is an impossible task. Therefore, it is bound to fail for everybody, because it cannot provide all that every single individual wants.

d) we only have so much space to work with. 200 pages is the actual practical real-life limit. Both in terms of cost, but also in terms of what can be packaged and mailed out to customers without having to increase the Shipping & Handling. CM is a complex game, and it is simply not possible to touch upon every little thing within the scope of 200 pages. And before you start with "yes, but at least cover XYZ"... note that everyone has their own list of XYZ's. We cannot cover all of them. Not. Possible.

Having said the above, I think the CMBN manual will be better than the CMSF one. We're more familiar with the base engine. Perhaps more importantly, we know better which concepts are more difficult for users to understand, so they are going to be treated in more detail. And lastly, a number of plain mistakes that were in the CMSF manual are removed (having said that, I recommend to everyone to read the v1.20 CMSF manual if they haven't done so. It is a vast improvement over the printed v1.0 version). The v1.20 comes free with the v1.20 patch (and it's available in the Online Viewer, too).

[Chops]

I am glad to hear that additional effort is being put into the Manual. I for one, find it very useful and have read all of the CM:SF Manual's cover to cover. I still look things up and read the manuals fairly often.

I hope that the effective range and ammo type for each weapon will be included. That type of information is not very complete in the CM:A Manual and some data is missing for weapons in the CM:SF Manuals as well. I have often looked this info up online, but come up with conflicting parameters.

Thanks!

Edit: One item that comes to mind in the CM:SF Manual that does not make sense is the way Condition parameters are defined as well as presented in the Editor.

Based on the definition of Condition (which is found several places in the Manual) it should be shown as-

Friendly Condition < X% - for example, Friendly Condition < 20% meaning less than 20% of Friendly Troops are panicked, routed, exhausted, etc...

Enemy Condition > X% - for example, Enemy Condition > 30% meaning greater than 30% of Enemy Troops are panicked, routed, exhausted, etc...

The way it is in the Manual and in the Mission Editor now, is opposite of what I described, and is bassackwards.

[Paulverisor64]

I appreciate hearing everyone's feedback.

I have started working through the videos which is very helpful in seeing how well the bird flies; but without good instructions with CMSF I just have trouble getting the Albatros off the ground.

I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get past the setup phase. I didn't realize in the demo's tutorial that there were actually 2 slightly seperated setup zones. Once I figured this out I was able to determine that the Move command was what allows you to revise your setup location. I anticipate as I move along that other simple questions with difficult to find answers will impede learning this game. I am not really into the modern age warfare so it isn't a huge thing to not learn this game; yet I would like to understand the mechanics of Combat Mission 2nd generation in preparation for CMBN.

I appreciate the fact that Battlefront is putting some extra effort into tutorials.

The most important thing to me would be that there would at least be a turn by turn walkthrough applied to a "simple" scenario that the player might be in command of a single tank and a small infantry contingent. The tutorial could guide you through the interface and how to interact with the environment as stated above. If an excess of explanation is necessary to explain any action this could just be linked to an area in the manual that covers this in greater depth. I still recall reading the Combat Mission Berlin to Barbarosa manual's way of covering a single simple scenario turn by turn. It implimented different movement type's for the infantry, and concepts such as "Hull Down" for the tank. Perhaps this would not go into great depth with anything but it would tie in a lot of concepts which should be considered, and in doing so it would also set the context of when such an action should be used. A couple pictures for difficult to explain concepts also would be helpful. The bottom line would be that the reader would easily be able to walk through their 1st scenario.

I can envision people from this community setting up scenario walkthroughs (such as the thread by tyrspawn in CMSF) which would shed light on some of the finer details of the game.

I do agree with Erwin in regards to hoping that the game manual might being easier to understand with some game examples attached in order to develope a greater game understanding.

[Moon]

Edit: One item that comes to mind in the CM:SF Manual that does not make sense is the way Condition parameters are defined as well as presented in the Editor.

Based on the definition of Condition (which is found several places in the Manual) it should be shown as-

Friendly Condition < X% - for example, Friendly Condition < 20% meaning less than 20% of Friendly Troops are panicked, routed, exhausted, etc...

Enemy Condition > X% - for example, Enemy Condition > 30% meaning greater than 30% of Enemy Troops are panicked, routed, exhausted, etc...

The way it is in the Manual and in the Mission Editor now, is opposite of what I described, and is bassackwards.

Not sure what is wrong with what is in the manual (v1.20) right now?

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_flippingbook&book_id=2&Itemid=223&firstPageNumber=116

[Chops]

Hi Moon,

The problem is with the functionality of this parameter and the way it is presented within the Editor.

This is how these parameters appear in the Editor within the Game when setting Victory Points -

Friendly Condition > X%

Enemy Condition < X%

This does not make sense, based on the definition of Condition in the Manual which is as follows -

Condition (friendly and enemy): if the player keeps his percentage of wounded, incapacitated and routed soldiers below this percentage and pushes the enemy above another percentage, he is awarded the respective victory points

So when a Scenario designer sets the Condition Parameter for Friendly in the Editor, it looks like this -

Friendly Condition > (greater than) 20% This means greater than 20% of Friendly Troops are panicked, routed, etc...

Enemy Condition < (less than) 30% This means less than 30% of Enemy Troops are panicked, routed, exhausted, etc...

The problem lies with the orientation of the > and < signs in the Editor. They are backwards, and don't make sense based on the defintion of Condition.

A player wants to keep his panicked, routed, troops below ( < ) a certain percentage not above!

I can't believe that after three years no one else has picked up on this issue. * Please forward to Charles or Philip or do somefink.

[Wodin]

Best tutorials are trail and error and o on the forum to ask if stuck...also the tactic advice sticky is a good source aswell.

Oh and choose a small scenario to start with.

I feel that a tutorial to cover all abilities and tactical wargame knowledge would be one massive document...the basics are whats required and then it's dip in and find out for yourself...on the job training call it.

[Erwin]

The best person to write a tutorial is someone who is NOT that familiar with the game. It is amazing what new player insight can provide.

High familiarity with anything can lead to all sorts of erroneous assumptions as to how the product will be used by new customers.

There appears to be no shortage of volunteers who want to help BFC make the CM series be all they can be. I would suggest that BFC provide a fairly new player or players (but not totally inexperienced) with a demo scenario for CM:BN (and if it doesn't cost you anything even for CMSF) and have them write a tutorial based on how they perceive what to do. The "Tutorial" player(s) should have access to more experienced players who can explain issues/answer questions when they come up.

The objective is to produce a tutorial that a newbie can relate to, and which does not make assumptions as to the players' prior knowledge. This is simply an elementary consumer manual writing strategy.

[Paulverisor64]

The best person to write a tutorial is someone who is NOT that familiar with the game. It is amazing what new player insight can provide.

High familiarity with anything can lead to all sorts of erroneous assumptions as to how the product will be used by new customers.

There appears to be no shortage of volunteers who want to help BFC make the CM series be all they can be. I would suggest that BFC provide a fairly new player or players (but not totally inexperienced) with a demo scenario for CM:BN (and if it doesn't cost you anything even for CMSF) and have them write a tutorial based on how they perceive what to do. The "Tutorial" player(s) should have access to more experienced players who can explain issues/answer questions when they come up.

The objective is to produce a tutorial that a newbie can relate to, and which does not make assumptions as to the players' prior knowledge. This is simply an elementary consumer manual writing strategy.

You hit the nail on the head. This would be a great advantage to ensure that familiarity doesn't fill in invisible details. What's more; this would free up the developement team more to work on more of the game's mechanics. There are many people here who are very anxious to get a look at the game; it would not be difficult to get a volunteer for writing up a tutorial for the demo. In the CMBB manual there were 15 pages used for the basic tutorial.

As also suggested the best approach would be to make this demo with tutorial very simple; tying together a number of concepts but only concentrating on giving the player the required basics to complete the demo mission.

HOWEVER: I do recall that Moon suggested that someone was working on a number of tutorial sequences. If that is the case; perhaps none of this dialog is necessary.

Ideally the tutorial could completely bypass description in the game's manual if there were several tutorial missions within the game itself. I am thinking along the lines of how Company of Heroes has implimented their "Basic Training". This would be a scripted mission in which specific commands would be hilited until the player clicks on the command to continue. There were several different Basic Training missions focussed on different gameplay elements.

[Lt Belenko]

The best person to write a tutorial is someone who is NOT that familiar with the game. It is amazing what new player insight can provide.

High familiarity with anything can lead to all sorts of erroneous assumptions as to how the product will be used by new customers.

There appears to be no shortage of volunteers who want to help BFC make the CM series be all they can be. I would suggest that BFC provide a fairly new player or players (but not totally inexperienced) with a demo scenario for CM:BN (and if it doesn't cost you anything even for CMSF) and have them write a tutorial based on how they perceive what to do. The "Tutorial" player(s) should have access to more experienced players who can explain issues/answer questions when they come up.

The objective is to produce a tutorial that a newbie can relate to, and which does not make assumptions as to the players' prior knowledge. This is simply an elementary consumer manual writing strategy.

You are correct sir. With 30 years of technical writing Experience under my oversized belt. BFC would do well to pick ME!!

[Wodin]

If your coming from a Company of Heroes background your going to need a tutorial!

CMx2 is real tactical wargame.....

[Renaud]

I've always enjoyed jumping in and playing, only much later looking at the manual, if ever. Half the fun is figuring out how to play and win, without step by step instructions. Mainly read the manual later to check out various keyboard combination I might have not figured out, or stats about terrain or units, or just for the enjoyment of a well-written manual.

Has BFC considered in-game documentation directly linked from in-game elements? It would be handy to flip back and forth or view as pop-up windows without having to crack a paper booklet. Example: hold down a hotkey and click on a building and get a popup with the documentation on buildings, something like that...same for units and in-game iconography, etc. The actual linked content could be stored to a database the documentation authors edit or upload directly. Maybe something as simple as a collection of PDF's, or one giant hyperlinked PDF, authored by the tech writer.

In-game context-sensitive documentation in combination along with a nice tutorial scenario including popup suggestions and reminders triggered throughout the duration of the tutorial would seem pretty complete to me.

[Erwin]

That sounds like work, Renaud.

I agree it's often fun to jump in. But, even when one does that, there comes a time when one wants a better understanding of the game and (usually) what one is doing wrong. Hence a tutorial written by less-experienced players would be very helpful. And using volunteers and compiling their versions of a tutorial and checking by one or two more experienced players would probably not cost BFC anything.

[Gromit]

I would have to say that a section that takes the CM:BN commands and explains through examples how to make tactical use of them all would be great, particularly those new to Combat Mission gaming. Might hold down the early frustration level around here for them IMO. That along with breaking down each command into what a unit's situational awareness is likely to be when using it. Some of this stuff is fairly obvious, but we all know what they say about assumptions, right?

[Alchenar]

If your coming from a Company of Heroes background your going to need a tutorial!

CMx2 is real tactical wargame.....

Speaking of which... Company of Heroes had an absolutely fantastic tutorial that introduced all of the significant game concepts to you in a very clear 'show, then do' manner. This should be emulated as much as is practicable and basic combat situations and the basic responses need to be covered.

[Wodin]

Read some good WW2 books on small unit tactics...learn the basic fundamentals of combat...then try them out in the game...

I am abit touchy about things at the minute. I recommended a Sim to someone who found the one he had abit to difficult. I even found the patch needed and emailed it to him..they bought it and then without any real practice declared with in two days he was misled and the Sim is the worse he has ever come across...for one the Sim is highly renowned and the sim he found to hard he says is easier...which anyone would tell you wasn't the case...

Being accused of misleading him really pee'd me off....he wouldn't put in the practice and juts wirte the sim off as he wanted instant gratification...

My point is a decent manual explaining the UI and editors etc is all thats really required... and maybe some youtube videos (Battle for the Bulge by Panther games released several training movies which went down really well)...after this I honestly feel that practice and learning through trail by error playing a small scenario is the best way to get to grips with a wargame...also read abit about warfare (at the particular scale and conflict) the wargame portrays

[Erwin]

"Read some good WW2 books on small unit tactics..."

You talking about anyone who's not a professional and under 40? Dream on, mate. Better to post tutorial on Twitter.

[MikeyD]

One way to reduce expected frustration level is to download the CMSF or Afghanistan demoes and play the hell out of them. Learn by getting your butt kicked repeatedly.

Tactical principles are pretty much universal. You don't charge blindly over a bald hill towards a MG emplacement for example. There's an old rule of thumb from WWII, after a solder's been in his third battle his life expectancy goes up substantially- the trick, though, is managing to make it through that third battle!

Plus playing the demos will make operating the UI and camera second nature. You'll get the basic learing process out of the way, learn the fundamentals.

[Guest]

"Read some good WW2 books on small unit tactics..."

You talking about anyone who's not a professional and under 40? Dream on, mate. Better to post tutorial on Twitter.

I think you're seriously underestimating us non-military under-40 types. And it never hurts to suggest a good book. Or two, really.