How about entering buildings and picking up weapons?

[antonn]

Couple of questions...

With TOW, one of my biggest dissapointments was the inability to have your forces enter buildings...Is this the case in Shock Force?

Now, with the older CM series (my favorite all time game), the only thing that I saw missing there was the ability for soldiers to pickup enemy (or even friendly) weapons and ammo. Anyone know if soldiers can utilize weapons found on the ground (or ammo) ?

Thanks, im really looking forward to the release of this game.

[ChrisND]

Hey dogface, where's that picture?? You know, the one that shows a cool forum feature.

[flammenwerfer]

[Sivodsi]

Dude, check out the gallery on the SF homepage.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by antonn:

Now, with the older CM series (my favorite all time game), the only thing that I saw missing there was the ability for soldiers to pickup enemy (or even friendly) weapons and ammo.

I think you may be misinformed as to the extent of enemy weapons usage in the Second World War.

a) using enemy weapons was actually against regulations in many armies

many armies were skillful at booby traps, including boobytrapping their own weapons. I believe the German egg grenades even had colour-coded fuzes to facilitate the process of booby trapping them

c) soldiers in combat become accustomed to the sound of enemy weapons, mainly because by 1939 it was rare to see enemy infantrymen during a battle - so firing enemy automatic weapons was generally discourgaged for that reason if no other

d) resupply of enemy ammunition could never be guaranteed, and regulations usually required that enemy weapons be turned over for salvage or inspection

Photos of MP40s in use by Russians/British/Americans or PPSh by the Germans may not be adequate documentary evidence of actual policy. The Germans were so short on weapons they actually pressed into service enemy weapons - including rechambered PPSh's - but that doesn't mean they were scrounged off the battlefield and used within the context of a 15 minute firefight.

[antonn]

I was reffering to a situation where there was a need to use captured weapons.

For example, in CMAK, when an infantry squad runs out of ammunition, it would have been nice to see them pickup weapons from enemy dead or from friendly casualties.

Not sure if you all remember Close Combat, as I recall, in Close Combat, a Bridge too far (2nd one)...when a squad ran out of Ammo, they could pickup discarded weapons (friendly and enemy).

Just wanting to know if its possible in this game....

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by antonn:

I was reffering to a situation where there was a need to use captured weapons.

For example, in CMAK, when an infantry squad runs out of ammunition, it would have been nice to see them pickup weapons from enemy dead or from friendly casualties.

This didn't happen with any kind of frequency in real life. There is a good thread in one of the CMX1 forums right now with a JasonC post on ammunition usage. Ammo usage is poorly modelled in CM.

Not sure if you all remember Close Combat, as I recall, in Close Combat, a Bridge too far (2nd one)...when a squad ran out of Ammo, they could pickup discarded weapons (friendly and enemy).

I do remember CC and CC2; owned them and enjoyed them in their day. They were unrealistic for a lot of other reasons, too.

Just wanting to know if its possible in this game....

There's no reason to include it. If you're blowing off all your ammo, that's called "poor fire discipline". It may also indicate a poorly designed scenario.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Hey dogface, where's that picture?? You know, the one that shows a cool forum feature.

Sorry, missed this one. I was out spending a nice day walking around town with my wife and daughter. I'll get the next one.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Just wanting to know if its possible in this game....

There's no reason to include it. If you're blowing off all your ammo, that's called "poor fire discipline". It may also indicate a poorly designed scenario. </font>

[Homo ferricus]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Just wanting to know if its possible in this game....

There's no reason to include it. If you're blowing off all your ammo, that's called "poor fire discipline". It may also indicate a poorly designed scenario. </font>

[Michael Dorosh]

I'll also add that weapons are an accountable item. It's great to just throw away your rifle in a movie. In real life, you've signed for it, and losing a weapon is a huge deal. The enemy can make valuable use of discarded weapons; your name is on the issue document and you're liable to be charged; its instilled in basic training that your rifle goes with you in the field wherever you are. In an emergency, these things are overlooked, but allowing them as a matter of course - doesn't happen from what I can tell. No need to simulate it in a game.

Why would you want to pick up and use a weapon that you haven't zeroed or tested for accuracy, anyway? If it's come to that point, you're better off lamming it then fighting with the enemy's kit.

[JonS]

OTOH, the enemies kit isn't accounted for on your own books. Some guys I know were stationed in a land far far away, working on a demining program. I forget whether it was an armed or unarmed deployment - armed, I think, but with VERY restrictive ROEs. Anyway, their house came under attack, and they chose to respond with some AKs they'd acquired for the purpose.

No ammo to account for, no need to explain the bullet holes across the street, etc. This is, however, something of a special case, and definately not applicable to a general firefight.

The enemy can make valuable use of discarded weapons

Well, not according to the rest of this thread

(I agree, incidentally. Enemy weapons: bad idea)

[ June 26, 2007, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[sxm]

Now, with the older CM series (my favorite all time game), the only thing that I saw missing there was the ability for soldiers to pickup enemy (or even friendly) weapons and ammo. Anyone know if soldiers can utilize weapons found on the ground (or ammo) ?

It actually is implemented in CMx1. The ammo counter of an infantry unit never reaches 'zero', only 'low'. They pick up ammo from wounded and dead people, but it's not graphically represented.

Cheers

[MikeyD]

I remember one CMBB game i played Finns i think. i overran German positions and as I sat in place I was amazed to see some of my units ammo count go from near zero back up to near 100%! I had a tough time getting anyone to believe it actually happened to me.

In CMSF you literally walk back to a Stryker and load up on more ammo/missiles. That simple.

About picking up rifles laying around, I'm reminded of the scene in 'Full Metal Jacket' where a patrolling soldier picks ip a big stuffed Pink Panther laying out and "BOOM!" Booby trapped! Vietnam vets were of the opinion that a picked up AK had the benefit of not drawing enemy fire (because it sounded like one of their own) but had the downside of drawing friendly fire (because it sounded like the enemy!).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

In CMSF you literally walk back to a Stryker and load up on more ammo/missiles. That simple.

A really disturbing trend is the presumption that no one will want to play as the Syrians. I know the Campaign will be one player as US, but I'm looking forward to head-to-head action and am looking forward to playing as the Syrians.

I'm betting they can't reload from a Stryker though.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I'm betting they can't reload from a Stryker though.

The Syrians can jog back to their hidden weapons cache.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I'm betting they can't reload from a Stryker though.

The Syrians can jog back to their hidden weapons cache. </font>

[MikeyD]

Okay, here's the BIG game secret.

The health crystal is hidden under the waterfall on level six.

[SGT_56M]

I thought it was under the red carpet.

[Matchstick]

The red carpet is the teleport into the US forces spawn room.

[Moon]

Actually the Syrian regular forces can rearm just as well (ammo, equipment) fom their BMPs. At least the mechanized forces can.

Martin

[Becket]

Health crystal?

Health CRYSTAL?

WhoTF puts their health power ups into crystals?

BF.C, please fix or do somefink!

[Battlefront.com]

Adding to what has already been said, and to Jon's comment in particular:

No ammo to account for, no need to explain the bullet holes across the street, etc. This is, however, something of a special case, and definately not applicable to a general firefight.

(I agree, incidentally. Enenmy weapons: bad idea)

There was one 1st hand report that I relayed some time ago when this question came up earlier. During a firefight in Ramadi (IIRC) a couple of US riflemen took up positions in some houses and were in a fierce firefight with insurgents. One of the guys had a malfuction of some sort. Knowing that every male has an AK lying around the house, he did a quick check and found it, returning to the fight within seconds. He started shooting at where the insurtents were and all of a sudden his position started getting peppered with US small arms fire because they assumed he was an insurgent who took over the position. The guy wasn't injured, but afterwards he said he'd never do that again!

Steev

[Mord]

I don't know about USING enemy weapons, but why shouldn't there be ammo/weapon stashes around different buildings, say by insurgent type fighters?

Doesn't this happen in combat in Iraq? Capturing a building where one of these caches lie would deny any rearming/reloading the enemy could do.

Mord.

[Aacooper]

In "The Men Of Company K", a WW2 book, the men of Company K do a similar thing with an MG42 and were told to stop quickly for the same reason.