Suggestions to improve the UI

[M1A1TC]

Post your suggestions, ideas or opinions here on what would improve the CMSF user interface. Ill start

1. Some type of battle feedback

2. Adjustable waypoints

3. Context sensitive mouse-related squad positioning (a la Full Spectrum Warrior, Company of Heroes)

4. Smoother scrolling

5. Ability to quave (SP?) orders (a la Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander)

[Other Means]

Faster panning/scrolling when the mouse is closer to the edge of the screen.

Rotate camera 45 degrees buttons.

[S2kde]

- Some more quicktipps (e.g. "special equipment" and ammo display (the graphical one of course))

- Possibility to scroll through certain UI elements with mousewheel (e.g. for "unit purchase" list in editor mode or "status/formation" windows ingame)

- Built-in key assignment configurator

- ...?...

1. Some type of battle feedback

What would I exactly have to imagine on this one?

[Barleyman]

Here's what I said in the other thread:

The game should provide you reports (that you'd receive as a real commander) and optimally these reports should form a scrolling message window that you can click on to zoom in to the unit that gave the report.

Naturally you should be able to hide the report window if you hate it and configure what exactly gets reported so you don't get swamped with 50x reports of units spotting enemy that you already know about.

An alternative would be that the units would somehow call attention to themselves. Whether by floating status icon or other means, doesn't matter. I should be able to see at a glance when my scouts have spotted (or think they have) an enemy position or when someone comes under fire.

Click-able OOB table available in-game would be really nice too. It should be organized as a tree or otherwise to be really useful and should optimally provide some feedback on the unit "health" (colors?)

Many of those aren't actually my ideas, they were brought up in one of those "BFC should not ignore us"-threads in around page 23.

[the Fighting Seabee]

1.Clickable Order of battle... needed urgently.

2.Big RED button that does nothing during realtime play should be the 'pause' button... should be easy to implement.

3.Ammo usage... tell squad to use at4, etc.

4.Hold fire... a basic command every soldier should know.

I can think of some more but it's 3am and I'm tired. gnite.

[c3k]

1. Adjustable waypoints

2. Tool tips

3. Right-click that REALLY drops the selected unit

4. Single left-click and hold to draw a box (frequently used).

5. Order of Battle

6. A setup phase WHICH IS A SETUP PHASE NOT THE FIRST TURN!!!! (See my previous thread on this.)

7. The ability to set how long the battle will be.

8. QB's with direct force selection

9. Finally, the ability to create your own menu of commands, organized as you'd like. Right-click on a unit and get the whole drop-down menu. Better yet, have a quickpick list of the most commonly used orders right there on the first right-click, so I don't have to make a second or third or fourth action to perform the most common actions. (Allow ME to set the orders I deem to be quickpicks.)

Regards,

Ken

[Pandur]

M1A1

iam with you on all points you stated, excpet 5... you mean to stack orders!? WeGo is a good mode to stack orders. also you have much time to do it right.

but i would also like to see Nr.3. CM has not much in common with this games(dont know FSW myself) BUT it would be an verry big help to see where the soldiers will end up. if the pointer could sens a crest it would be easier to place a squad there. also in urban terrain it would be a big visual help.

also wheres the right click menue!? right now you have to move the mouse like a mad man if you try to navigate the UI with the mouse. up, down, up, down, aim the little button, up, down...and so on.

it IS much more convinient to have a long list apear next to the unit or where i choose so with right click.

luckily there are the absolut buttons to map, so i dont have to use the new UI.

[Battlefront.com]

Many of the suggestions listed above will find their way into the game over time. What I think gamers under appreciate is how much time it takes to do these things. Having a game with very good UI and no game isn't a good idea So we focused on the elements that need to be there and now we are focusing on refinements.

I'll also remind you guys of two other things:

1. Sometimes suggestions are in conflict with existing features or other suggestions. For example, only ONE behavior can be associated with a straight Left or straight Right click. So two people suggesting two different things for that Right click can't both get what they want. Which brings up the more important point...

2. Everybody has their own opinion as to what the UI should do, what it should look like, and where that line is between too much and too little info. We will never, ever, in a billion years get the UI to a point where more than a fairly small number will agree that the UI is "perfect".

So it's all about compromise and finding the best balance that works for the most amount of people. We haven't achieved that yet, but we are working towards it. Expect new things, including some already mentioned above, to be introduced in v1.06 and beyond. But also expect some things to never, ever get into the game. That's just the way it goes

Steve

[GSX]

Id be interested to know what things never will get into the game. You obviously have a good idea right now, so to stop me and others bitchin for ever about it, can you tell us now.

Cheers.

At the very very least Id like the right click on a unit bring up some kind of menu as to what that unit can do. This would be a real cool addition, is this a possibility?

[Hat Trick]

Originally posted by GSX:

At the very very least Id like the right click on a unit bring up some kind of menu as to what that unit can do. This would be a real cool addition, is this a possibility?

Good god yes. One of two things that I immediately noticed was the inability to right click on a unit to give it an order, and I still miss that function. Even if it requires nested menus it would be a huge boon to have. The other was no tool tips on mouseover at the bottom of the screen. Took me a long time to figure out, and remember, what all of those icons down there stood for. I think it would be a huge help to new players if, instead of having to turn to the manual to know what some of the basic information is, they could simply mouse over the icons and get a brief description or even just a title as to what it is they are looking at.

[Peter Cairns]

I'd like this,

Consider having the option of building in delays for going in close.

If you were commanding a platoon you would have an overall view and could select units, but if you went down low to make detailed changes an micro manage a particular unit then you wouldn't be able to zoom back out or switch to another unit for say 15-20secs.

This would simulate the fact that giving detailed orders takes more timse and draws your attention away from other things.

Whether you would like this all depends on whether you see yourself as a platoon CO giving orders or as alternately taking the role of every squad leader and NCo in the game.

Peter.

[Marco Bergman]

I would really like to be able to reassign the mouse buttons too, not just the keyboard.

[C'Rogers]

configure what exactly gets reported so you don't get swamped with 50x reports of units spotting enemy that you already know about.

I think if BFC is even slightly positive to the idea people need to start a thread on what is most important. I really doubt that it is possible to do what you are talking about (well it is possible, but I doubt it could be well implemented without taking up a lot of time).

Like would we all agree a destroyed vehicle should cause a message? Half a squad getting wiped out? I think big things like that might be doable, but people should actually put what they want in order.

I am rather happy with the UI. Lack of floatover tool tips are the only major complaint my friends and I have had about the game.

[Stingray]

I would like to have a lable of where the squad is located inside a building. Are they in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd ...floor? As it is, I have to zoom in to find which squad is in what floor.

An location indicator box like CM1 would be very helpful.

Thanks

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by C'Rogers:

Like would we all agree a destroyed vehicle should cause a message? Half a squad getting wiped out? I think big things like that might be doable, but people should actually put what they want in order.

So? Paradox has been doing configurable reporting for years and years. And seeing how BFC is now practically a paradox subsidiary..

Also note how I suggested status icons as an alternative.

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by GSX:

Id be interested to know what things never will get into the game. You obviously have a good idea right now, so to stop me and others bitchin for ever about it, can you tell us now.

Oh, I'd say clickable OOB is right out as it's been on the table since CMBO..

[wunwinglow]

I think the rightclick menu for each unit is the single most useful tool I miss from CMAK etc. I recently reinstalled it on my new PC and I can play so much more fluidly with this communication tool. I am sure familiarity is helping, but I have really tried to get to know the new CMSF interface, but I'm sorry, it just doesn't work for me. The simple fact of having to look away from the unit is disorientating enough, but the number of accurate mouse clicks to issue an order is twice that needed with the rightclick menu system. I find the new system is just, well, clumsy. Sorry, but that's what I'd like to see fixed. Sorry if it isn't what battlefront want to hear. Sorry if I just don't get it. Sorry.

Tim

[Battlefront.com]

GSX,

Id be interested to know what things never will get into the game. You obviously have a good idea right now, so to stop me and others bitchin for ever about it, can you tell us now.

Actually, we really don't have a good idea of what is possible or not until someone has thought it up When someone suggests something that I do think will never happen I try to say so right there and then. For the rest of the stuff I either stay silent because I don't have an opinion, or I say whether I think it is (in my view) a good or bad thing.

One thing I don't like are "messages". I find them as useless as they are annoying. There is too much stuff going on and these messages quickly become information overload and I wind up tuning them all out. They are a substantial amount of work to include, no matter how it is done (but ESPECIALLY if it is user configurable), so I don't think that will ever happen. We have other ideas of how to get better information to the player than scrolling lists of text.

At the very very least Id like the right click on a unit bring up some kind of menu as to what that unit can do. This would be a real cool addition, is this a possibility?

Yes, it is possible. Though I will warn you right now, Right-Click is already in use so it can't be used for such a feature. See previous comment about conflicting uses of keys/clicks.

Here are some general things I think you can expect to see over time:

1. More "mouse over" information when you point at something. Version 1.05 included some for weapons labels, there will be more for various things over time.

2. Mouse configuration. Dunno when that will get in, but I too think it would be good to allow the player to assign different functions to the mouse instead of the defaults we have.

3. Strategic information. We have some ideas of how to do this without involving text (as I said above, I think text is suboptimal).

4. Some sort of graphical representation of the Chain of Command.

We've had some of these ideas on paper for 3 years now, others have come up since the game's release based on user feedback. We can't say exactly what will get into the game, in what form, or when until we actually find the time to do it.

Things can usually be added in fairly quickly once we find the time to stick them in. The problem is cumulatively this is a lot of work. So either we slipstream them in here and there along with other changes, or we basically stop working on the game itself for a significant time and just do UI work and nothing else. We think slipstreaming is the way to go.

Steve

[M1A1TC]

Steve

Here is what reviewers said about the CMSF's user interface:

Eurogamer:

"...And what's happened to the interface? Where are the universal unit path and targeting lines that used to help me make sense of the mayhem? Why do I have to flip though a multi-pane panel in the corner of the screen or memorise esoteric shortcuts to dish-out orders? Where's the tutorial? Where are the tooltips that explain the plethora of new icons? Blimey, even drag-select isn't working properly..."

IGN:

"..Shock Force offers up the standard turn-based modes of the previous games, but also introduces a full real-time mode as well. It's exciting to play Combat Mission in real time but it doesn't include the standard RTS conventions, like creating hot groups, creating formations, or drag selecting mixed groups of units. As a result, you'll have to micromanage things a bit too much. On the plus side, you can issue orders in paused mode to get things the way you want them. Shock Force does away with the convenient right-click menu of previous games in the series and instead relies on a wide range of hotkeys. It's easy enough once you get used to the shortcuts, but being able to draw up an order menu right on the game map would have been much more convenient. Likewise, there are no tooltips at all in the game, which means you'll be referring back to the manual to discover just where all your commands are... "

GameSpot:

"...The manual doesn't help a great deal, either. While lots of information is stuffed into its 200-plus pages, this PDF tome is laid out like reference material geared solely to answer specific questions. And this is one game that needs a manual to take you by the hand. The interface is jammed with text that's about the same size as the fine print on auto-rental contracts, along with numerous tiny buttons bereft of context or tool tips. Hotkeys are supported, but you can't change them without editing a text file in Windows, and they annoyingly change function depending on what you're doing at the time you hit them. When you move, for example, the "I" key is "Quick," but when you're in combat "I" stands for "Target Light." Good idea, guys. Everything is so clunky and archaic, it's amazing that Battlefront doesn't include a code wheel for look-up copy protection... "

Worthplaying:

"..The user interface has also undergone a significant upgrade, both in function and appearance. In previous games, unit commands were made available by right-clicking on the map, whereas in CM:SF, they are visible on the Command Panel located at the bottom of the screen. While many of the commands would be familiar to owners of the previous games, there is a number of unique commands only found in CM:SF. These include Target Light for a reduced volume of fire on a target; Acquire, which allows infantry to pick up weapons and ammunition from certain friendly vehicles; and Administrative, which splits an infantry squad into two, or thematically into assault or anti-tank teams.

There are also some features not present in this title that were in the previous Combat Mission games. One of the most notable is the absence of being able to order armored units into a "hull-down" position, where the bulk of the vehicle is hidden from enemy view by a ridge, leaving only the turret visible. According to the team at Battlefront, allowing vehicles to go hull-down is a more complicated affair in this game than in the previous CMx1 titles, where hull-down was basically an on/off feature. In those iterations, a tank was either hull-down or it wasn't. In CM:SF, targeting is much more precise and based on the actual silhouette of a unit, and therefore a hull-down command that indicates the exact state was not considered to be absolutely necessary. This is not to say that hull-down positions aren't possible — they are — it's just that the posture isn't handled automatically by the game..."

Gameshark:

"... The user interface is even less friendly than the old one. Now standard interface tools like the right mouse button for movement or rollover tooltips for general information are eschewed in favor of a tabbed menu that assigns the same keys for different orders depending on which tab is selected. You can double-click to select similar units but not drag select for dissimilar ones..."

The Armchair Empire:

"..The game (at least in the review copy I played) is not without some flaws, none of which are deal breakers, but a few of which are annoying enough to impede play. While the new UI is well-designed, intuitive and visually rich, the camera, both mouse and keyboard controlled, feels a little unwieldy right now. Vehicle pathfinding, both enemy and friendly, is lamentably bad.."

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, read most of these before. It is interesting to read them all at once, though. I encourage everybody to do that and tell me if you see the same thing that I do... no consensus and often direct contradictions

User Interface is so personal that it's impossible for us to make everybody happy. In fact, the people that claim the CMx1 interface was "perfect" and shouldn't have been messed with miss the fact that many people found it clunky and unintuitive. You can see some of those comments above, in fact. Here's a perfect example:

Everything is so clunky and archaic, it's amazing that Battlefront doesn't include a code wheel for look-up copy protection.

While the new UI is well-designed, intuitive and visually rich...

Obviously we agree with the latter and not the former However, we're not blind and can see that the number of people that don't like the UI the way it is aren't a small number. It's just that the people that don't like it should remember that doesn't mean it sucks. It means they don't like it. Big difference. Someone is no more wrong to say they hate it than someone is wrong to say they love it. It's a personal opinion thing.

So basically, no matter what we do we're going to have a group banding against us and complaining that we need to change the UI. What we have to do is make the best decisions we can and adapt what we can to accommodate as many people as we can without trashing the whole thing and starting all over again. Why? Because spending a month redoing the UI will piss off all the people that have gotten used to it (and yes, actually like it), likely not satisfy the people who are complaining now, and introduce completely new complaints. I think spending that month to get TCP/IP WeGo would be a month better spent.

As you can tell, I think UI design work is the most rewarding and fun part of game design

Steve

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

One thing I don't like are "messages". I find them as useless as they are annoying. There is too much stuff going on and these messages quickly become information overload and I wind up tuning them all out. They are a substantial amount of work to include, no matter how it is done (but ESPECIALLY if it is user configurable), so I don't think that will ever happen. We have other ideas of how to get better information to the player than scrolling lists of text.

That still leaves the status icon-style approach. Kind of like red exclamation point for broken units and so on. Something like in Silent Storm, maybe?

Dare I suggest a minimap? Or a top-down map view accessible from a hotkey (tab?) that can be clicked on to zoom to a position of interest?

As for OOB and textual representation.. If you go with funky descriptive icons or, god forbid, NATO symbols, actual type of equipment and number of men in squad still kicking would be very important info.

About stopping work to work on UI, there's also option to introduce new elements in add-ons and/or sequels..

[c3k]

Steve,

I disagree. Reading those reviews lead to the inescapable conclusion that the GUI is subject to valid criticism. How you react to that criticiscm is what will be important.

I know CMSF is your baby. It's hard when strangers tell you that your baby is ugly, with webbed feet. Well, maybe that'd explain why it can swim so well?

The GUI is clunky. It is a chore to use. It gets in the way of the game.

Most functions SHOULD be one click away.

Here is how I play the game:

Hmmm, select a unit with left-click. Oops. I must've JUST missed him. Left-click again. Got it! Now, move the mouse ALL the way down to the orders tabs. Concentrate, concentrate, get the little "M" tab. Don't miss...Got it! Okay, whew, glad to see big blocks. Hmm, I'll click "move". Okay, back up to my unit...click, click, click, click, crap! That second waypoint is WRONG. Dammit, now I have to delete, delete, delete. Good. Click, click, click. Okay, he's done. Let's get his squad-mate moving up. There they are... Click. Son-of-a-BITCH!!! I placed another friggin' waypoint. Okay, delete. Find open ground, right click. Stare at unit info screen. Did that drop the first unit? No. Okay, right-click AGAIN. Okay, got it dropped. Now, where was that second unit? Oh yeah, up there. Left-click...got it. Okay, now down to the little tabs again....

That's NOT a parody, Steve. That is my experience playing this game. The GUI layout makes it an increase in workload to perform simple operations, like MOVING.

My screen is a 24" widescreen. I play at 1920x1200 resolution. That's to give you an idea of the size of the tabs, and the distances to move the mouse. Yeah, woe is me. I'm sure you'll dismiss this as unwarranted whining.

The fact remains that there are many separate, independent sources of information, some supporting CMSF, some "not getting it", but all decrying the state of the GUI. Maybe there's something there?

A suggestion: Having to repeatedly move the mouse AWAY from the unit I'm using (the FOCUS of my attention) is sub-optimal. Why not enable right-click on a unit to immediately open a MOVE/COMBAT menu? That alone would be huge.

Another oft-repeated request is adjustable waypoints.

The old left-click-hold and drag to lasso units is, well, tried and true. If I only need one unit, I can STILL drag around it. If I get too many, I can left-click on them and drop them out of the selected units. That is a standard mouse use.

Take these suggestions for what they are: suggestions to improve the game from a user's perspective with NO vested emotional interest in what has been done.

Regards,

Ken

(edited for clarity and spelling)

[JSB]

graphical representation of the chain of command sounds good to my ears...

I've seen no answer about the tab key problem (for me at least), which could be optimized for RT (CMx1-like).

What about a "full screen" option? (the possibility of hiding the UI: perhaps a recoding nightmare?)

[Thomm]

The tabbed menus are a great backup system for the more esoteric commands (like "Split AT").

For direct control, I am afraid that I do not like it (in agreement with the rules of usage imposed on the word "suck" ). Compare "... the 'I' key is 'Quick,' but when you're in combat 'I' stands for 'Target Light.' Good idea, guys."

However, there is the "hotkeys.txt" file that saved my CM:SF control days.

The issue, IMHO, is: how many guys/gals playing the demo are so turned off by the keyboard control system that they do not invest the time to learn that they can reconfigure the hotkeys to their personal preference!

Best regards,

Thomm

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