Suggestions to improve the UI

[M1A1TC]

I also prefer to use just the mouse. Never liked using hot keys for any game in my life, and Ive been playing video games for about 23 years

[wunwinglow]

I use 3 high-end CAD programs at work, and the only time I use the keyboard is for data entry, dimensions, angles, array quantities, file names and so on. Pretty well everything else is mouse/context menu controlled. I'm no typist, which perhaps explains why I don't use many key commands, but I get the work done. And my only source of fury is that one program rotates the 3D view with rightclick and drag, while the other requires the F2 key to be held down. Switch programs, instant 12 minues of blue language, until my brain has caught up. Until I switch programs of course...

My point is, right click/context menu allows me to focus entirely on the design process. I don't look away from the area of interest, and the commands are limited just to those that are relevant at that moment. My mouse cursor is already very close by on screen, so the physical distance my hand has to move is tiny, and so no 'motion sickness' effect of having to rove all about the screen. The screen 'acreage' is completely clear to see the work; no 'panel' taking up 1/4 of the screen; the menus are tiny in comparison, and vanish once the command is made.

OK, I'm not making much effort with the key commands, I will freely admit that. But you did ask for comments on the interface. And I still think the current situation is messier than CMAK et al. So as far as I am concerned, things were changed for the worse. I prefer the old system. It works better, for me. The new one gets in the way, and I end up getting frustrated 'cos I can't issue commands accurately and quickly. I loose units because of the ui. To me it feels like trying to write while wearing boxing gloves. Which is a shame, when the previous set-up, OK, wasn't a Mont Blanc, but it was a perfectly servicable Biro. And I could write with it....

Tim

[c3k]

Steve,

Honestly, I seem to have some measure of support. Not that consensus matters here, but doesn't that show that my mouse control request is not a single individual unable to adapt? Perhaps there may be something there...

Mouse controls only with minimal mouse movement. (Sure, add a key or two to open menus.)

I won't harp on my previous points. I think they still stand.

It seems to me that the official position os that hotkeys are the way to go, how about adding a nifty little program to adjust hotkeys? Sure, I could edit whichever file it is. (I really don't know, but I'm sure a search would reveal it.) I liked Il-2's system for adjusting controls. If you're not familiar with it, a long lost of controlled attributes would open with it's corresponding key in the adjacent column. To change the key, you'd select the attribute and then simply hit the new key. When you were done, you'd close it and all your changes would be entered. If you'd chosen the same key for multiple attributes it would be highlighted.

Any chance of whipping up something like that? Say, 1.07?

Thanks,

Ken

[C'Rogers]

I remember when the game first came out I was explaining to a friend of mine some of the changes that had been made between the games, and what other people where complaining about. I made mention of the disappearance of the right click to bring up menu function.

His response

"There was a right click menu?"

We managed the game with just hot keys. Once the ability to completely customize hotkeys was added we didn't have any problems.

The 3x3 grid system for the hotkeys is, in my opinion, very innovative. I really wish someone had come up with something like it earlier (maybe they did, kudos to battlefront if they did). Now I say that even though I don't use it but I think I see where they are going.

Hotkeys and menu have one key weakness, the more orders the more clunky it becomes. The grid menu decreases this the clunkiness factor significantly. If you were to be proficient at this method, and because it is new none of us are, it would not be difficult to have probably upwards of fifty commands easily accessible.

[Caesar]

This discussion reminds me of Linux Vs Windows debates. Linux experts claim it is faster and easier to do everything because they have memorised a whole lot of obscure commands and know and understand the system. Windows users say windows is easier because everything is intuitive from the start. The problem is, both sides of the argument are correct. However, which one dominates the world? I can work this control system but like most of the reviewers I don't find it intuitive. I have tried really hard to like it and when I have played a number of games over a short period of time I have even become pretty proficient with it. However when I take a few weeks break the next time I play it is not pretty. Anyone watching would be convinced I was drunk.

Looking at the reviews, the number of people whinging and going from my own experience this current interface is hurting you. It is putting people off the game and making the initial learning curve too great. I suspect that you are losing sales from people trying the demo and giving up before getting into the game and exploring its depths. Had I not played the CM1 series I am not certain I would have put the effort in.

Part of my job is writing user interfaces. I agree 100% that there is no such thing as a perfect interface and I know from experience that every time we make a change (often much requested ones) we will get whinging about how the old way was better or we should have done it another way. However there are non-intuitive and unfriendly interfaces and IMO this is one of them. It does work and it can work well (as long as you are thorougly familiar with it). That does not make it intuitive and friendly.

One of the things we have discovered is that we need to test our systems with people who are unfamiliar and watch where they stumble and struggle. Ironically enough, the people who are most familiar with our system are the worst judges of the interface.

[Mike Churchmoor]

I don't know anything about programming UI's but I have played a few computer games in the last 20 years. Based on my gaming experience with other games and with cm:sf I have to say that imo in games like CM mouse control beats key control hands down. As much as I like cm:sf as a game I have to say that with mouse control, like in CMx1, it would be sooo much better. This is just a guess but I would imagine that new comers (at least casual gamers) will also find the key controls a little bit, hmm, strange.

I will buy coming moduls and other CMx2-engine based games for sure but one can hope that UI will improve to be more user friendly in the future.

Just my 0,02 €.

[Other Means]

I was an information architect in a former life, and designed procedural websites and UI's, so it's not a million miles away from this. I would say the absolute underlying requirement for interfaces is consistency. Using any kind of interface is 90% muscle memory, so you automatically move the mouse or select a key without any concious effort. I'd say the 3*3 grid violated this straight off, and didn't give much feedback of what state was selected. So you'd expect a certain click to give you a retreat order, and you'd end up bailing out or sumfink.

Fortunately, the hotkeys brought this consistency back and made the game easy to play again.

But still, de gustibus and all that.

[GSX]

Heres what I think. The CMx1 UI was surely better for RT play???? After all it could be played very quickly just by using the Mouse and occassionaly the spacebar.

The UI of SF could have been designed by someone who has never played a PC game before, let alone a wargame.

No amount of CM-1 bashing by its makers will convince me that this game has actually brought anything new gameplay wise to the genre [sure graphics are way slicker and I can play RT].

This UI for me[and for all of my friends] is a definite step backwards.

Maybe someone should produce one of those cards you get with flight sims that fit over the keyboard so that you can use it to learn all of the hot keys?

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by GSX:

The UI of SF could have been designed by someone who has never played a PC game before, let alone a wargame.

Constructive as ever.

[M1A1TC]

I hope BFC reads this thread and gets an idea that their UI in not user-friendly. I know that individual opinion varies, but seems like most people and reviewers find it unintuative,non-user-friendly,uncomfortable, hard-to-learn even after months after playing with it. It is just badly designed IMO.

You can continue to say "they just dont get it", and not working to fix it after months and months after release. You are just hurting your own company and sales. I am sure I am not the only one who wants you to succeed. You are one of my favorite PC game producers. I want you to keep making games. But I want them to be well designed games

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

You can continue to say "they just dont get it", and not working to fix it after months and months after release.

Where have they said this?

Have you read the BFC responses in this thread?

[Melnibone]

Personally I find the UI better than CMX1 in many ways - which is good enough for me. The lack of mousewheel in CMX1 is a killer when I go back to it.

[M1A1TC]

That was not a direct quote, but my personal opinion. What I get from BFC's responses is that few things might be added in the future (mostly not the ones that are missed/requested by players) Many features should have been in from the start (adjustable waypoint for one)

I am still very upset about the UI, lack of right-click menus, etc. I feel like I have no choice but to play it using hot-keys, when I prefer it the CM1 way, when I could play the game with right hand while sipping beer with my left. Now I have to use both hands to play, while my beers sits there, lonely, getting warm

[ January 25, 2008, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[Melnibone]

Camelbak?

[M1A1TC]

beer in my camelbak? brilliant Thanks

[Melnibone]

I don't seem to use half as many waypoints in the new game as I did in the old. I thought I would really miss adjusting waypoints but I don't seem to.

It seemed more important with the command delays in CMX1 I guess.

[Hat Trick]

Well, I don't really see why this debate has to have an either/or quality. Some people like hotkeys, others (myself included) prefer to use the mouse to give commands. Many games allow both -- why can't CMSF add right click orders while keeping the hotkeys (aside from the time/burden of programming)?

God knows I've tried to get several friends to take up the game, and they've all been too frustrated with the lack of mouse functionality and the learning curve with hotkeys to stay interested, let alone purchase, the game.

[M1A1TC]

I dont think we are debating having one or another. Seems to me like the mouse control is so inefficient that it forces players to use and learn hot keys, which not everyone likes or prefers to use.

IMO CMSF doesnt really offer a good alternative to using hot keys

[Andro]

"why can't CMSF add right click orders while keeping the hotkeys"

That is the point, user friendly is, to implement the most wanted, and let the user decide what he prefer...

[stikkypixie]

I don't know, but wouldn't the drop down menu be incredibly long? Of course you could group it like the tabs now, but that's hardly faster. It saves one mouse movement.

[M1A1TC]

It could be a wheel-like, as in Neverwinter Nights

[ January 25, 2008, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[stikkypixie]

I don't know, it will be big wheel then I guess. For me using hotkeys is not a problem, I used them CMx1 so I just edited my hotkeys.txt to match the hotkeys for CMx1.

With some luck BFC will add the right mouse thing for those who really want/need it.

[M1A1TC]

How about if you just click on a unit, it selects it. If you click and hold, after 3 seconds a menu pops up? This way the right click can be used to unselect

It can also be context sensitive. You select your unit first, then to move, click on a spot on a ground, a menu pops up (FAST,MOVE,SLOW,REVERSE,ROTATE) etc. If you place the cursor on enemy, menu pops up (attack light, heavy, supress, area fire)

[Hat Trick]

Yeah, I don't mind a long drop down menu, or even sub-menus -- I like to keep my focus on the battlefield, and not have to memorize hotkeys or mouse down to some letters at the bottom of the screen. It's not really about saving steps, it's about the fact that many people find using the mouse more intuitive, thus easier to learn, and more natural and convenient. For us, having a viable alternative to hotkeys would be huge.

As for deselecting, why not just left-click on the ground to deselect?

[C'Rogers]

The CMx1 UI was surely better for RT play????

The reason why this is not true.

I don't know, but wouldn't the drop down menu be incredibly long?

The new system is, theoretically once learned, incredibly efficient and thus should be better for real time. You really don't ever have to move your hands while playing and can keep your eyes on the screen. One hand stays on mouse, the other controls the 10-12 buttons needed (the 3x3 grid and tab to switch through I guess at a minimum).

Of course like everyone else I wouldn't have a problem with another system. People probably would run into the time problems mentioned with large menus. But I certainly wouldn't mind the option, but I am not the one that has to program it.