Suggestions to improve the UI

[Pandur]

You have to have a really good button layout when it's such a critical part of the game

in your personal case i belive this to be exact.

i couldnt play CMSF fluid when i would use only the mouse right now.

if you played CMx1, and i asume that , go ahead, look up the text file you download and re-edit the keys to what "you" like em to be(oh, also if you heavent played CMx1, do it). i have em verry close to CMx1. i have Z for open up, and O for rotate, some things wich are different than what was showen above.

if this is done, you know all commands from CMx2 wich where in CMx1 as long as you know their old shortcut.

for the new things you take the corresponding, like B for blast if its not used otherwhise.

the ones wich would be maped twice, you need a crib/memory hook there

like,... i have "A"ssault on A, and "A"cquire on G like "grab"

its somehow funny and so, easy to rememeber. that you do with the few wich are left.

and after 15 minutes of playing it goes ahead as if you did it all your live long.

EDIT:

it takes 5 minutes if its not totaly new to you and than its done. no more messing around with the many buttons and tabs.

[ January 29, 2008, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[M1A1TC]

Steve

How about more context-sensitive approach that I suggested earlier and got no comment from you?

For example, to Aquare Javelins, you would

1.Click to select a squad.

2. Hover (or right click)with the mouse on a Stryker

3. A menu window appears - "MOUNT,DISMOUNT,AQUIRE"

4.Click on Aquire. Tac AI automatically loads up what they need (or it can be manual)

To target enemy tank with a Javelin:

1. Click to select squad.

2 Hover (or right click) on an enemy tank with a mouse

3 Menu appears -

"Target Light, Target Heavy, Suppress"

4. Select Target Heavy

5. Infantry fires Javelin until enemy tank destroyed

[ January 29, 2008, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[Battlefront.com]

Contextual popup menus may have some use, but they generally are limited in usefulness. Your first example isn't very useful because the infantry unit would already have to be in the Stryker for Aquire to work, Dismount is not even relevant, and Mount is not a Movement Command. So I'm not even sure what it is you think that would do.

Targeting things and ALWAYS having to click a popup menu (like CMx1's tank "Main Gun - Y/N" option) is a lot of wasted clicks since 90% of the time you want whatever the default outgoing fire option is.

We've got some ideas on how to improve the functionality without adding special hotkeys or relying upon mouse driven behavior.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Or I should say that we have some ideas that will appeal to both the Mousers (people that want to use the mouse for everything) and Keyboarders (those who like using hotkeys for Commands). We probably won't do anything significant until after v1.07, which is intended as a catchall patch for lots of very small stuff that could use some more work.

Steve

[M1A1TC]

I dont think you fully understood what I was saying, Steve

Those commands (Mount,Dismount, Aquire) would be in context. Meaning, if the squad is already mounted, the Mount option would not even be there. And you would not have to click to open the menu, just hover the mouse over the Stryker for 2-3 seconds, a menu opens, you click one. So all in all just 2 clicks used (mouse clicks, not keyboard involved)

Another example - you have Eng, Squad selected. You hover the mouse over a wall - menu opens:BLAST,AREA FIRE. If you had any other squad selected without C-4, Blast command would not even be there

An example with Javelin - if that infantry squad has AT weapons, when you hover the mouse over enemy tank, the menu could have 2 options: USE AT-4, USE Javelin

Is that any better explanation?

[Battlefront.com]

One thing you have to understand, too, is that the cursor is not aware of its environment unless it is specifically tasked with doing something, like clicking or with a particular Command active (like Target). Otherwise the cursor is only aware of X,Y position, not even X,Y, and Z.

In order to get anything to magically popup, without having manually requested something, the system has to be constantly monitoring the mouse and seeing when it is perfectly still for a predetermined amount of time, then it has to figure out if it should do anything. This simply won't work from a usability standpoint. I don't want popups coming in front of me when I don't want nor need them. I also don't see any value in waiting around, perfectly still, to get a popup to come up when I could have had the Command issued and done with already.

In general, we are more interested in UI improvements that are good for both Mousers and Keyboard people, WeGo and RealTime. Something that requires sitting still isn't good for WeGo environment IMHO, but it's completely out of the question for RealTime. So it doesn't pass the first tire kicking.

Context sensitivity, however, is something that is quite useful. We had that with the CMx1 popup menu, for example. We also had it for a few specific features in CMx1 and even a few for CMx2. But they come up when they are explicitly required/requested. That's the sort of direction we are looking at going towards.

Soon you probably will get what you want from a functionality standpoint, but I can't say yet how it will work.

Steve

[orwell]

Nobody playtested CM:SF. We had a monitor on in front of a bunch of lab rats and took notes to see if any died during the experience. Since none did, we figured everything was fine and we figured it was perfect.

Steve

Those poor animals, I'm pretty sure that animal cruelty, and I think some Geneva Convention laws are involved. Mostly the ones involving WMDs. Weapons of Mass Distraction or sumfink.

Seriously though, I personally feel like, it's not only the 'difficulty' percieved as it is of changing hotkeys in a text document, but not being able to change them in game directly. I think you've underrated this feature, and that by adding it, and making it at least semi-prominent so that, yes, you CAN adjust the keys, it's easy, and not only that, by having them there, you can hit pause and experiment, see what feels natural. You have a good point about it being more efficient, but I think it stems from people just not being able to easily see it. Once I quit the game, started it back up, tested, and then closed it again and adjusted the keys more to get it to feel natural, my game play experience vastly improved.

The second thing I would like to argue for, is that I don't understand how the camera control was devised. When I first got the game, it felt very clunky, and in desperate need of a fix. I still feel like it needs to smoothly and perceptively scroll. It's a lot easier to stop it once you move away the mouse or quit pressing the camera pan key, than it is to have to go to the edge and guess where you put the cursor to move the camera. I recently tried out World in Conflict, and besides noting that I didn't enjoy it as much as CMSF, it had a camera control that was beautiful. It did everything I wanted it to. You don't need to make this the norm, or even add it in desperately soon, but for the love of Syria PLEASE rip it off and stick it in sometime.

Customizable key menu, a excellent camera control set up, and no wall bugs, and you'd have the perfectest CM yet. I'd go far as to say any complaints about the rest of the game would be secondary, as you have added enough material in to make it all playable for everyone except perhaps the MP guys. Not sure if they'll ever be happy. But after 1.06, provided something else doesn't go to hell, I think focus on UI should be a greater priority than what you've evaluated it as. I'd think it'd surpress a number of bitchy issues, as well as insta-negative responses so that those who try the demo will get further in. I admit if I hadn't admired CM:SF for what it is, I probably would have stopped at the demo instead of going on to buy a boxed version.

Either way, thanks for taking the time to respond to the community so often, it looks like it can be a double-edged sword to be sure, but I think it's a huge improvement overall that we can provide feedback, and hear straight from the developer(s).

[markl]

One more last comment from me on this topic for the time being.

While it is true to some extent that with regard to tried and true interfaces that most people have got to know, I think things need to progress. Especially to keep up with new hardware.

I was not so long ago that interfaces only used the left mouse button. For anyone who does not like the new mouse movements in CMSF I would suggest if possible to try one of the new mice like the Logitech G5. It has three movement speeds adjustable without the driver. Giving you either fast or slow movement at the press of a button.

This makes the moving around the CMSF screen a very nice experience that is not as good with a standard mouse.

Like wise my second recent purchase was a Logitech G15 programable keyboard with 18 seperate programable keys.

It is my intention to try and use these to standardise the key across multiple games I like to play.

There have been some excellent examples here that I am sure Battlefront will take up with future patches to improove the interface. But I am sure that in the meantime that there are controllers that will greatly enhance the players satisfaction that do not cost all that much.

While I hope the interface is improoved to keep everyone happy, I would also like to see interfaces made that are customisable so we can make better use of the new controllers to enhance our experience.

FPS like ARMA now support track IR which is a real breakthrough. If we kept only to the old interfaces this would not have occurred at all.

While the key board is still very important I think it's future as the main controller will diminish.

I also like flight simultors and have a full HOTAS kit to enhance the experience. I look forward to the day I can program the interface of games like CMSF to suit myself and not be tied down by the developers or anyone else's configuration.

Anyway just my take on the issue.

Cheers MarkL

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by markl:

One more last comment from me on this topic for the time being.

I would suggest if possible to try one of the new mice like the Logitech G5. It has three movement speeds adjustable without the driver. Giving you either fast or slow movement at the press of a button.

This makes the moving around the CMSF screen a very nice experience that is not as good with a standard mouse.

Like wise my second recent purchase was a Logitech G15 programable keyboard with 18 seperate programable keys.

It is my intention to try and use these to standardise the key across multiple games I like to play.

While the key board is still very important I think it's future as the main controller will diminish.

Anyway just my take on the issue.

Cheers MarkL

An excellent and pro-acvtive response to the whims of developers everywhere.

My take on the UI:

The sides of the control panel should not respond to mouse control, thus moving my carefully set view of the carnage to come. If not plausible move the red button towards the center a bit so I don't hit the side and scroll off into the desert.

But PLEASE: No automatic pop up screen when I pause my mouse over ANYTHING...The single most irritating gaming convention ever

[M1A1TC]

Anyone here played Silent Storm? I really liked their battle system and UI

I wish CMSF had similar destructable enviroments

Here is what their producer says:

"Unprecedented realism featuring true 3D and fully destructible environment, real bullet tracing and collision detection and realistic trajectories, speed and piercing performance for different types of bullets, grenades and missiles"

[ January 30, 2008, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[orwell]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Anyone here played Silent Storm? I really liked their battle system and UI

I wish CMSF had similar destructable enviroments

Here is what their producer says:

"Unprecedented realism featuring true 3D and fully destructible environment, real bullet tracing and collision detection and realistic trajectories, speed and piercing performance for different types of bullets, grenades and missiles"

Sounds interesting, though all I can see is the producer saying "And in the next patch, you'll now be able to enjoy new frame rates! From one fpm to to a whopping FIVE frames per minute. The modern battlefield has never been so vivid."

[M1A1TC]

My 3 year old PC handles Silent Storm better then CMSF

[PeterLorre86]

Maybe cause Silent Storm is a 3 year old game?

[Andro]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As far as I can see this one will never happen:

"Finally, the ability to create your own menu of commands, organized as you'd like. "

Steve

Hmmm, it is possible to mod the game? If yes, some modder WILL do exact this now or later

[SlowMotion]

Some new 1.06 info

[ January 31, 2008, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: SlowMotion ]

[Pandur]

little offtpoic;

My 3 year old PC handles Silent Storm better then CMSF

my one year old PC too

if you like the S2 engine, you have to check out Jagged Alliance 3(not much to see yet though). if its anywhere near good as JA2 was, it will "pawn" every squad based tactical game there is currently. its developed on a modified silent storm engine version.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by SlowMotion:

http://www.battlefront-store.com:8080// {snip}

Mate, use the full reply form and the URL button, you're breaking my browser.

[SlowMotion]

Really? The link didn't look that bad on my screen. Easily fits on one line. Maybe the edited one works better.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by SlowMotion:

Really? The link didn't look that bad on my screen. Easily fits on one line. Maybe the edited one works better.

Bless you - my PC blew up and I'm confined to the laptop.

[hoolaman]

My suggestion for the UI is to allow the positional hotkey system to actually be used like it was intended, because when it is it can be a very quick and effective way to plot commands.

I am using the numpad for this job (as it was originally intended I think), and it is very easy to switch between MCAS tabs because you can use the use of the / and * keys to switch scroll through the positions with only a slight move of your fingertips.

This can NOT be done using UIOJKLM,. because the function keys are the way out of reach and do not scroll anyway, they use four keys for four tabs.

The other problem is that the camera cannot be scrolled very well unless you use the WASD in combination with it. That is fine, but I can't use the numpad and go all the way over to WASD to scroll the camera, so I suggest abandoning the arrow key LOOK mapping (which is redundant with the RMB anyway) and allow the WASD scroll to be mapped to the arrow keys. That way you could hit NumLock to enable the arrow keys on the numpad and would never need to move your hand from the numpad position.

Or it would be a short move to the proper arrow keys.

[Battlefront.com]

I definitely want to see an expansion of the customization of hotkeys and the mouse behaviors. I don't know what will happen, but I am lobbying for some of those things to happen for v1.07. I have some pull with The Jar, but its still his call

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

The spacebar in v1.06 is great.

Thanks for including that in the latest update.

Regards,

Ken

[M1A1TC]

Agreed. Thanks Steve and thanks to the brain in the jar

[Dennis50]

I have 2 thumb buttons on my mouse. I just set the large back thumb button to spacebar. Now in the game I can do most of my orders with the mouse. I'm very happy now. Thanks steve and charles and the rest of the crew also.

Gunz

[Battlefront.com]

The idea to put the popup menu into CMx2 dates back a long time. Probably at least a year before release. We found that after the testers got used to the new UI they (for the most part) found the popup unnecessary. Of course we agreed so it stayed out.

When the game was released there was a large wave of reactionary feedback about all kinds of things different/new/absent about CMx2. More than a few even went so far as to say that we should throw out 3 years of code because of something they didn't like (like the "missing" blue bar). This was expected since Humans generally resist change, even if it is for the better. Gamers are no exception, wargamers even more so.

Therefore, our plan was (and still is) to add/change things that appear to be more-or-less necessary rather than dropping everything and addressing each "Gripe de jour" in a futile attempt to make everybody happy. That means taking the eye off of context and the big picture, which is not a good thing to do. So instead of pursuing an impossible and impractical goal of making 100% of our customers 100% happy 100% of the time, we've been proceeding deliberately and with reflection towards maximizing the impact of our limited time to best serve the needs of as many customers as possible. We've been addressing those sorts of issues with each patch we've released, while either discounting or not prioritizing others. The popup menu of Commands is just one example.

Some people confuse debate and discussions with us as an example of us not listening. That's simply not the case. We always listen even when we are taking a contrary position. I know that if I have no interest in what someone has to say I'm not going to waste my time debating him/her. Likewise, if something isn't worth a customer's time to debate then it's probable that either it isn't really that important or the customer is generally of a mindset that isn't really worth debating (i.e. "put it in or I'll throw a tantrum").

It's an imperfect process but it does result in a progressively better, more focused approach to making the underlying game better for the most amount of people in the shortest amount of time. It's the same process we've used for 10 years and it is likely to be the same for the next 10 years. Some people have problems with this approach and take offense, but as the old saying goes... one can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

Steve