Suggestions to improve the UI

[Jon Hagstad]

I agree with c3k, and especially in realtime mode the GUI gets in the way of enjoying the game.

I also run CM:SF in 1920x1200 btw.

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by c3k:

Most functions SHOULD be one click away.

Configure the Hotkeys and they are.

[c3k]

Melnibone,

Thanks. Now, other than MEMORIZING my personal hotkeys, how do I do that? Meaning, how do I know what keys do what? Also, note that the specific letter assigned to the orders buttons are not what I was discussing. I was focusing on MOUSE usage.

I know that hotkeys are very important in RTS gameplaying. However, I would think that even BF.C would agree with me that CMSF is NOT meant to be a twitch game dependent upon ping times and hotkey memorization. (Hey, those games have their place: more power to 'em. But not here.)

So, Melnibone, you've told me to dig into a file and edit it to configure my hotkeys. That doesn't help. It doesn't help the neophyte, it doesn't help the computer USER who doesn't know how to unzip a file, it doesn't solve the problem of a clunky (at best) GUI. It is a workaround.

The BEST interface should not take the FOCUS AWAY from the task you're trying to perform. Right now the GUI is its own FOCUS.

If you are so satisfied with your hotkey assignments, any change to the GUI and mousekey usage should not affect you.

WARNING: COMMON SENSE SOLUTION TO FOLLOW:

Again, left-click-drag to select unit/s. Right click on said unit/s immediately opens a menu window, not with tabs, but with large buttons for the various commands.

Obviously, I have no idea what it would take to program this. I don't care: I PLAY games, I don't MAKE games.

Regards,

Ken

(P.S. Melnibone; I will, one day, reassign hotkeys. However, I will need to sit down and think through what would be the best keys to assign to the various orders. That is not the intent of a thread targeted at the game designers. That could be the subject of its own thread.)

[Thomm]

Originally posted by c3k:

(P.S. Melnibone; I will, one day, reassign hotkeys.

For your own sanity, do this as quickly as possible! You must be really enthusiastic if you can play the original system!

Here are some of my hotkeys ...

M ... Move

Q ... Quick

S ... Slow

F ... Fast

A ... Assault

B ... Blast

U ... Hunt

R ... Reverse

T ... Target

Y ... Target light

V ... Cover Arc

N ... Face

H ... Hide

O ... open up

D ... Deploy

+ ... aquire

\ ... split team

Best regards,

Thomm

[Other Means]

Hold the shift key and lasso your units - what's wrong with that?

If you like you can use my hotkeys file: Hotkeys

I don't use the camera keys, I just use the mouse, but everything else is, to me, sensible. I've actually moved on from this and will edit this post when I'm not in work, but it's a start:

e.g.

<E>F // move fast

<E>Q // move quick

<E>M // move normal

<E>S // move slow

<E>H // move hunt

<E>A // move assault

<E>R // move reverse

<E>B // blast

<E>N // mark mines

<E>T // target

<E>Y // target light

<E>C // target arc

<E> // NOT CURRENTLY USED... Do not assign a key to this function! It will eventually be the hotkey for Clear Target, but not yet properly activated

<E>O // face

<E>I // deploy

<E>P // pause

<E>U // hide

<E>/ // dismount

<E>B // bail out

<E>- // vehicle open up

<E>* // pop smoke

<E>G // acquire

<E>D // divide teams

<E>a // assault team

<E>t // antitank team

[Andro]

I remapped ALL Keys, (on german Keyboards the original setting is not working), to give the Units direct orders with the Keyboard. Otherwise it isnt playbale for me. And still, HOW OFTEN I left click one sinlge unit, thinking it isnt activated, right click, clicking left again and do a move command... so far so good

But, a few secounds later I wounder what the heck is going on with the enemy activity? I moved the whole Squad (double clicked one unit), often into areas under enemy fire.

I played hours, but still do this mistake like in the first Mission - pls go a litte more to the RTS standard in the next patch.

[c3k]

Again, gents, you seem to be missing the forest for the trees: WHY SHOULD ANY USER NEED TO REASSIGN HOTKEYS? Oh, I know: because the original assignments are, um, sub-optimal?

Okay, back on track: left-click+shift is a two process function. Left-click and drag (drawing a box) is a single process function.

What is THE MOST USED function in the game? Um, picking unit? Okay, LET'S MAKE THAT A SINGLE FUNCTION PROCESS.

Left-click drag is one finger, one hand, one motion. (Sounds like a campaign slogan!) Left-click+shift and drag is two fingered, two handed, two motions. Sure, that'll double my caloric burn, but that's not why I boot up CMSF.

Again, to hammer this home, right-clicking over a unit should open a window RIGHT THERE filled with orders buttons. That way my mouse pointer only moves a minimum distance, I don't have to select the little tabs (how often do I MOVE or TARGET compared to ACQUIRE or SPLIT? Why are they each given the EXACT same interface priority?), I don't have to wander away from the FOCUS of my attention.

Regards,

Ken

[c3k]

Rollstoy and Other Means,

THANK YOU!

However, I will still rail on in this thread about fixing the GUI. Remapped hotkeys are better than the original, but a better GUI would be, er, better.

Regards,

Ken

[c3k]

Steve,

If you think my scenario about how I play, my clicking diary, which is upstream several posts, is hyperbole, look at Andro, above.

Regards,

Ken

[Andro]

If your Hand is one the Keyboad (shift) why not give direct orders with it, too?

I personal do not need a right click menu. But if possible to implement, it sould be activeable for they player who want it.

[JSB]

Agree with Andro about multi-selection.

I suggest that the floating icons of ALL selected units should appear in green, and in bright green for the "leading" one. (in Yellow for the Syrians).

[Thomm]

Originally posted by c3k:

Again, gents, you seem to be missing the forest for the trees: WHY SHOULD ANY USER NEED TO REASSIGN HOTKEYS?

No, we are not missing the forest; we are just trying to help. It is not up to us to program a new interface. With the hotkeys, it basically plays like CMx1, which is good enough for me.

Apart from that, I agree with everything you wrote.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by c3k:

Melnibone,

Thanks. Now, other than MEMORIZING my personal hotkeys, how do I do that? Meaning, how do I know what keys do what?

Until they become memorised you could try tattooing them on your hand.

Or..the graphical tabs do update with the new key assignments to help you out.

[ January 24, 2008, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Melnibone ]

[Other Means]

Originally posted by c3k:

{snip}

What is THE MOST USED function in the game? Um, picking unit? Okay, LET'S MAKE THAT A SINGLE FUNCTION PROCESS.

Left-click drag is one finger, one hand, one motion. (Sounds like a campaign slogan!) Left-click+shift and drag is two fingered, two handed, two motions. Sure, that'll double my caloric burn, but that's not why I boot up CMSF.

{snip}

Regards,

Ken

Umm. Clicking a unit is easier than lassoing a unit, and is a single step process - a click, rather than lassoing which is "set top left point, drag to bottom right point" so 2 step.

Apart from that - I get the gist of what you're saying but since re-configuring the hotkeys the command interface has disappeared for me - which is a good thing.

I question a lot of the other choices, like 1 AT missile per slot rather than a simple counter, the way ammo is shown etc, but the actual command process is now very slick to me. In fact playing CM1 came as a shock, I kept right clicking everywhere.

Try the hotkeys, it really, really helps.

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by c3k:

So, Melnibone, you've told me to dig into a file and edit it to configure my hotkeys. That doesn't help. It doesn't help the neophyte, it doesn't help the computer USER who doesn't know how to unzip a file, it doesn't solve the problem of a clunky (at best) GUI. It is a workaround.

Not telling you to anything - just suggesting modifying the hotkeys might help you out. No unzipping required - just edit a file in notepad and save it.

It would be nice if there was an in-game interface to edit the keys. By the way - no need to SHOUT.

[Flanker15]

I'd like a click drag lasso ability and a right click menu for orders too. It would make the game much more fluid if you know what I mean. Also you could play with one hand and get rid of the big order box thing and stick something more useful there.

[c3k]

Melnibone,

Perhaps I misinterpreted the tone of your response, but telling me to tattoo the hotkeys to my hand IS telling me "to anything". If it was humor, a smiley would help.

Oh, the isolated word in caps? That's for emphasis to help avoid misinterpretations.

If you meant your comments in jest, my apologies.

Regards,

Ken

[Other Means]

I've updated my hotkeys file on the server to my current one, it's just slimmed down to what I use, i.e. the hotkeys.

[c3k]

Other Means,

Thanks. Accessed and copied.

Regards,

Ken

[Battlefront.com]

Barleyman,

That still leaves the status icon-style approach. Kind of like red exclamation point for broken units and so on. Something like in Silent Storm, maybe?

Yes, the icon style approach is the way we want to explore. We have a lot of elements already in the game that can be experimented with, so it is a matter of finding the right balance and then the time to implement it.

Dare I suggest a minimap? Or a top-down map view accessible from a hotkey (tab?) that can be clicked on to zoom to a position of interest?

Another idea that had to get shelved due to time. I don't know if we'll get it in for WW2, but I know we're going to try.

As for OOB and textual representation.. If you go with funky descriptive icons or, god forbid, NATO symbols, actual type of equipment and number of men in squad still kicking would be very important info.

For something like this it is appropriate to have a user choice between Iconic and NATO symbols.

About stopping work to work on UI, there's also option to introduce new elements in add-ons and/or sequels..

Yes, that is what I meant by "slipstream".

c3k,

I disagree. Reading those reviews lead to the inescapable conclusion that the GUI is subject to valid criticism.

I agree. My point is that the critics don't agree about the specifics, just like users don't. It's so damned personal preference that it's the only thing to expect.

The GUI is clunky. It is a chore to use. It gets in the way of the game.

For you it does, for me it's simplicity itself and 100 times better than CMx1's UI. Especially when playing RT. See, that's my point... what is clunky to one person is well designed to another. The two quotes I stuck in above are evidence of that from people who make a living out of being critical.

Most functions SHOULD be one click away.

True, and that's why they are, but of course it depends on how you use the tools provided.

Hmmm, select a unit with left-click. Oops. I must've JUST missed him. Left-click again. Got it! Now, move the mouse ALL the way down to the orders tabs. Concentrate, concentrate, get the little "M" tab. Don't miss...Got it! Okay, whew, glad to see big blocks. Hmm, I'll click "move". Okay, back up to my unit...click, click, click, click, crap! That second waypoint is WRONG. Dammit, now I have to delete, delete, delete. Good. Click, click, click. Okay, he's done. Let's get his squad-mate moving up. There they are... Click. Son-of-a-BITCH!!! I placed another friggin' waypoint. Okay, delete. Find open ground, right click. Stare at unit info screen. Did that drop the first unit? No. Okay, right-click AGAIN. Okay, got it dropped. Now, where was that second unit? Oh yeah, up there. Left-click...got it. Okay, now down to the little tabs again....

Right... but how much of this is absolutely identical to CMx1 gameplay? Almost all of it.

My screen is a 24" widescreen. I play at 1920x1200 resolution. That's to give you an idea of the size of the tabs, and the distances to move the mouse. Yeah, woe is me. I'm sure you'll dismiss this as unwarranted whining.

Which is why using the hotkeys makes sense. If you refuse to use them, that's your choice. But saying the game FORCES you to do this is nonsense.

The fact remains that there are many separate, independent sources of information, some supporting CMSF, some "not getting it", but all decrying the state of the GUI. Maybe there's something there?

Sure there is. Never said there wasn't. What I'm saying is that there isn't agreement on the specifics, nor was there agreement for CMx1 either. Some of the things you think were the bee's knees for that game were panned by reviewers and other gamers. As I said, it's so damned specific to a single person's point of view it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a UI that is criticized. Well, at least for a game of this complexity. I suppose Tic-Tac-Toe could have a UI that 95% of its users would love, but even then 5% would say it sucks.

A suggestion: Having to repeatedly move the mouse AWAY from the unit I'm using (the FOCUS of my attention) is sub-optimal. Why not enable right-click on a unit to immediately open a MOVE/COMBAT menu? That alone would be huge.

Why not use a hotkey? That alone would be huge

Another oft-repeated request is adjustable waypoints.

Yes, and we do want to reintroduce that as soon as possible.

The old left-click-hold and drag to lasso units is, well, tried and true. If I only need one unit, I can STILL drag around it. If I get too many, I can left-click on them and drop them out of the selected units. That is a standard mouse use.

The functionality is there, you just have to use a modifier key.

Take these suggestions for what they are: suggestions to improve the game from a user's perspective with NO vested emotional interest in what has been done.

As I've said a thousand times... we can't implement everybody's idea of a perfect UI because there is no such thing. I realize that and accept that. It seems the customers are the ones that need to understand that

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Adam1,

Also a "lock camera in position relative to unit selected" would be great

I'm confused here, I think, because TAB works just like it did in CMx1. Click on a unit, hit TAB, and bingo... all set. As for interior views, the interior graphics are flat and low res for it to look good. That's just the practical reason. The philosophical reason is that CMx2 isn't a "first person" game and we don't want to start going down that road because more requests can follow. Like making fully modeled/textured 3D high res interiors

Back to c3k, even though I think he is making progress

Now, other than MEMORIZING my personal hotkeys, how do I do that?

You don't. That's the point of the 3x3 row concept. Keep one hand on the keyboard over 9 keys that correspond to the "relative" positions of the 9 graphical buttons. Use one or more keys to switch between the different types of Commands and then just match position for position. Command in upper row, far left? Hit the upper row, far left key. Now the one in lower row, far right? Hit the lower row's far right key. You don't even have to move your hand. I don't have to look down at the keyboard either, nor a graphical menu possibly obscuring where I want to put down a waypoint.

From a technical standpoint the current UI SO much faster and easier to use than the CMx1 methodology, which I must remind you (probably) a majority found to be clunky. Having said that, when it is not used well, and even outright rejected without much experimentation, of course there will be problems. Taking a hammer and trying to put in a screw with it isn't a good idea either At least there are more ways to use the UI in CMx2 compared to CMx1.

As for the key defaults... this was the subject of much debate internally. The problem with "supporting existing conventions" is that there are RTS conventions and FPS conventions, and often they are not the same. Plus, CMx2 isn't either one of them and therefore has unique needs, or at least emphasis in different areas. So the decision was to make camera controls for the keyboard like found in both RTS/FPS games. The irony here is that we DID follow standard conventions and they are suboptimal compared to how it can be set up. For me, QWE, ASD, ZXC are my Commands and not camera control. I use the mouse for all camera activity, the keyboard for all Command activity. It works very well, but as I said it has to be used that way to get those benefits.

Steve

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Other Means]

c3k - cool, let me know how you get on.

Steve - I'd suggest

</font>

• Crtl Click on the map should always have the clicked point in view, regardless of the height of the camera above the map.</font>
• Same for tab to unit. Above height 4 you can't see the unit.</font>
• Increasing speed of pan and movement of camera with proximity to screen edge</font>

I just wish I were more persuasive...

[Guest]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

You don't. That's the point of the 3x3 row concept. Keep one hand on the keyboard over 9 keys that correspond to the "relative" positions of the 9 graphical buttons. Use one or more keys to switch between the different types of Commands and then just match position for position. Command in upper row, far left? Hit the upper row, far left key. Now the one in lower row, far right? Hit the lower row's far right key. You don't even have to move your hand. I don't have to look down at the keyboard either, nor a graphical menu possibly obscuring where I want to put down a waypoint.

Steve, I have to agree with c3k on this one. To get this to work properly, I have to memorize the buttons. And damn, dude, that's hard. As far as keyboard dexterity / finger memory goes, I play guitar (well, even), I touch-type code in a dozen different languages, I write papers one-handed while standing up on the train...

But connecting 20-odd on-screen commands with 20-odd key combinations is so much less intuitive than using, say, a context-sensitive menu that I still pretty much click on the graphical buttons or use lettered hotkeys rather than go to the trouble. To really use it (like I tried to a few months ago) I'd have to memorize it.

Seriously. The 3x3 thing is horrifying. I love CM:SF and have been playing it since 1.00, but I still can't "play" the interface as intended to save my life.

[JSB]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I'm confused here, I think, because TAB works just like it did in CMx1. Click on a unit, hit TAB, and bingo... all set.

Not exactly: in CMx1, the selected unit was always in sight, which is not the case in CMSF when the camera is high.