PBEM Player Guidelines

[Probus]

13 minutes ago, Centurian52 said:

He allegedly once sent a jeep speeding down the main road of a town for the express purpose of seeing if any Germans would shoot at it (IIRC it didn't work, there were Germans in the town, but they held their fire).

I often use a jeep in this fashion. To probe enemy lines and use it's speed as a defence. Then open up on any positions that fire at the jeeps with overwatching tanks.  It works 1/2 the time.  I didn't realize it was 'gamey'.

I am also notorious for using the Recon by Fire tactic.  I'm attacking a town in CMBN currently and one of the first things I did was hose down the church bell tower.

Edited April 2 by Probus

[Centurian52]

Just now, Probus said:

I often use a jeep in this fashion. To probe enemy lines and use it's speed as a defence. It works 1/2 the time.  I didn't realize it was 'gamey'.

I have sometimes seen people refer to sending jeeps out front to get shot at as 'gamey'. That caught me by surprise the first time I came across it. Especially since I thought reconnaissance was one of the many roles jeeps were meant to fill. But it does feel like there's a difference between sending a jeep forward to poke at the enemy perimeter and sending a jeep speeding directly through a town that is suspected of being occupied. The latter really does seem like the sort of thing that people might more legitimately call 'gamey'. And yet we have a real world example of it (probably, I don't actually know for sure if the story is true, but it seems like the sort of thing that Patton would do). I suspect that most complaints of gamey tactics stem from people forgetting that soldiers fighting in real wars are often at least as creative and willing to experiment as Combat Mission players.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Probus said:

I often use a jeep in this fashion. To probe enemy lines and use it's speed as a defence. Then open up on any positions that fire at the jeeps with overwatching tanks.  It works 1/2 the time.  I didn't realize it was 'gamey'.

I am also notorious for using the Recon by Fire tactic.  I'm attacking a town in CMBN currently and one of the first things I did was hose down the church bell tower.

I'm reluctant to use church bell towers for that very reason!

[Centurian52]

19 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'm reluctant to use church bell towers for that very reason!

Yeah. You can get away with it against the AI. But they're almost always one of the firs things I shoot at. One of the lesson's from Monty Python's "How Not To Be Seen" is that you shouldn't hide behind the only bush in the field.

 

[Bannon]

Hilarious! Gotta love John Cleese.

[A Canadian Cat]

3 hours ago, Centurian52 said:

that comment was gold, if only I could find it so I would know who to credit it to).

Found it - @MikeyD

  

On 1/2/2024 at 6:15 PM, MikeyD said:

I recall an anecdote. At some point following operation Cobra Patton's advancing army lost contact with the Germans. So he turned to his subordinate and told him 'Take that jeep and drive down the road til someone shoots you, then report their location back to me', or words to that effect. Patton's troops didn't like him much because he tended to conduct his battles like a CM player. 

 

[Thewood1]

Everyone knows Patton was gamey.  He never followed the house rules.

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, Centurian52 said:

But it does feel like there's a difference between sending a jeep forward to poke at the enemy perimeter and sending a jeep speeding directly through a town that is suspected of being occupied.

It raises the question of what use are recon vehicles in a typical CM scenario.  One doesn't have to recon for miles to find the enemy.  Usually the recon unit is best dismounted and used on foot from turn 1. 

In open terrain have found it useful to send recon vehicles FAST in a relatively tight circular patrol route that gets near to suspected enemy position to see if they draw fire in the hope that their speed and frequent change in direction will assist survivability.  Driving at any speed down a road in a straight line towards enemy positions is suicide.

[Vacillator]

3 minutes ago, Erwin said:

It raises the question of what use are recon vehicles in a typical CM scenario.

A purely hypothetical question speaking as a person who has never even played Cold War until now.  The question is not based on my first ever Cold War PBEM.  Definitely not.

So I believe doctrine says Soviets don't dismount infantry for recon (they're probably in too much of a hurry).  And they don't unbutton.  Would I be gamey doing either of these games?  Hypothetically.

The avoidance of recon by death is on my mind.  How un-Soviet.

 

[Probus]

@BFCElvis just started a thread about jeeps that includes their role in reconnaissance:

 

[OldSarge]

20 hours ago, Probus said:

What is y'alls opinion of pre-planned artillery not in setup zones but on routs of advance?  For instance a road through the woods that you are planning on going down or suspect the enemy is going to use to advance to your location?  Not exactly 'recon by fire' but could be a tactic to break up ambushes or nail possible convoy routs.  Would that be considered too 'gamey'?

The situation I'm considering is a ME in which a small town is the central battle zone.  So wouldn't it be wise to blast all the roads into the town with pre-planned artillery?

I regard pre-planned bombardment of choke-points, fords and bridges as part of doing good map analysis and would expect an opponent to do the same - it is fair game.  So, I would consider it to be sound tactics.
 

[Halmbarte]

5 hours ago, Vacillator said:

A purely hypothetical question speaking as a person who has never even played Cold War until now.  The question is not based on my first ever Cold War PBEM.  Definitely not.

So I believe doctrine says Soviets don't dismount infantry for recon (they're probably in too much of a hurry).  And they don't unbutton.  Would I be gamey doing either of these games?  Hypothetically.

The avoidance of recon by death is on my mind.  How un-Soviet.

 

My take on using the combat recon patrol is you’re supposed to make contact with the enemy. Sometimes your lead vehicle is going to die doing that. 
 

When I’m doing recon with the Sov my vehicles are unbuttoned. I’m supposed to be seeing, and unbuttoned is way better for doing that. If I need to get intel dismounted, and I have time to do that, I’ll go that way. 
 

My take is the Sov tactics are about results: Hit the enemy at weak points with fresh troops that keep arriving in waves until you overcome resistance n break through. If your regimental commander is an idiot this can look like trying to jam a meat grinder by feeding it your arm into it. 
 

H

[PEB14]

15 hours ago, Centurian52 said:

I have sometimes seen people refer to sending jeeps out front to get shot at as 'gamey'. That caught me by surprise the first time I came across it. Especially since I thought reconnaissance was one of the many roles jeeps were meant to fill.

I think it depends on which jeeps we are talking about... The cal.50 jeeps of US recon units are obvioulsy dedicated for the task, but the ones included in the British infantry companies are not...

[PEB14]

16 hours ago, Erwin said:

??  One has to assign all "prep fire" in the setup turn.  The only choice (for offmap arty) is whether it is "immediate" or starts 5, 10 or 15 minutes later.  Prep fire from an onmap gun is always "immediate" (onmap arty fire cannot be delayed).

Yes, sorry, that's basically what I meant: firing during the set up turn shall never be considered gamey for the attacker. On another hand, it always should be for a defender...

[Centurian52]

3 hours ago, Vacillator said:

So I believe doctrine says Soviets don't dismount infantry for recon (they're probably in too much of a hurry).

I don't think that's true. At least not as a hard rule. They will try to dismount as little as possible, in order to maintain the momentum of their advance. But that "as possible" there is doing a lot of heavy lifting. If the situation calls for dismounting, they will dismount.

3 hours ago, Vacillator said:

And they don't unbutton.

That part is true as far as I know. I think it just comes down to the old debate that comes up on the forums of whether the improved situational awareness is worth making your TCs more vulnerable. And it seems each side of the Iron Curtain reached the opposite answer. The US said yes, it's worth exposing your TCs for the improved situational awareness. The Soviets said no, keep the TCs safe. We'll improve situational awareness by just using mass to get as many eyes looking towards the enemy as possible.

[Ultradave]

On 4/2/2024 at 3:15 PM, Vacillator said:

A purely hypothetical question speaking as a person who has never even played Cold War until now.  The question is not based on my first ever Cold War PBEM.  Definitely not.

So I believe doctrine says Soviets don't dismount infantry for recon (they're probably in too much of a hurry).  And they don't unbutton.  Would I be gamey doing either of these games?  Hypothetically.

The avoidance of recon by death is on my mind.  How un-Soviet.

 

Late reply but as we were always told "it depends on the situation".  If you are operating in very closed terrain, you may have no choice but to dismount and make your way through the woods, clear whatever is on the other side, and then eventually meet up with your drivers when it's reasonably safe. Especially if the only alternative is driving down a road in the open that the enemy has good lines of sight to..... hypothetically speaking, of course 

The other possibility is setting up a strong overwatch position that covers the open ground you need to cross mounted, so that you can respond to anything that fires into the open area. And we're back to recon bait there. But they may help you locate the major threats without doing to much damage to you.

Dave

[Vacillator]

Thanks Dave.  So far in our encounter (the hypothetical one ) I have not had a single spot / sound contact despite losing three vehicles.  So I think I need to do better at this, which suggests the overwatch and perhaps also the dismounting.

[Probus]

9 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

So far in our encounter (the hypothetical one ) I have not had a single spot / sound contact despite losing three vehicles

Sounds like you may be in the situation where you need to do a little more reconning by fire?

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Probus said:

Sounds like you may be in the situation where you need to do a little more reconning by fire?

Yes, you're probably right.  I did happen to spot a TOW in flight so I have a rough direction it came from.  No sign of anything firing the missile in that direction though.

[Halmbarte]

On 4/12/2024 at 9:34 AM, Vacillator said:

Yes, you're probably right.  I did happen to spot a TOW in flight so I have a rough direction it came from.  No sign of anything firing the missile in that direction though.

Like they say, one exploding AFV, shame on you. Three burning AFVs shame on me. 

Sometimes, recon by death is how the job gets done. But, have someone on overwatch. Then pull up to the previous terrain feature and kick some boots out* to go have a look.  

Recon takes time, but it's usually well worth it. 

H

*You can dismount AFV crews and have them scout forward if you're short on regular infantry. 

Edited April 13 by Halmbarte

[Vacillator]

34 minutes ago, Halmbarte said:

kick some boots out* to go have a look

Yeah, and I think this is why I was jokingly asking about Soviet doctrine earlier.  But bugger doctrine, we're playing a game here and I need to see Dave's unfriendly TOW (and other) teams sooner rather than later.

[Halmbarte]

Just now, Vacillator said:

Yeah, and I think this is why I was jokingly asking about Soviet doctrine earlier.  But bugger doctrine, we're playing a game here and I need to see Dave's unfriendly TOW (and other) teams sooner rather than later.

Another option is to ask yourself 'what is the perfect place to put that ATGM?' 

Then you shell that area to suppress any potential ATGM assets. 

H

[Vacillator]

5 minutes ago, Halmbarte said:

Another option is to ask yourself 'what is the perfect place to put that ATGM?' 

Then you shell that area to suppress any potential ATGM assets. 

So far in the game we're playing I have no artillery.  At all.  I have some tanks (now minus one) which could shell, but they would likely die first.  So I'm going for your observation based approach for now, and with hindsight perhaps I could have done more earlier...