Broken LoS (yes this thread again)

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Aragorn2002 said:

It certainly is when I'm at the shooting range.

Yes first thing you teach don't put black on black, Battlefront is doing a fine job putting all the human factors in the game. Took me some time to work out the sniper teams but I never blamed Battlefront.

 

[Aragorn2002]

5 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Yes first thing you teach don't put black on black, Battlefront is doing a fine job putting all the human factors in the game. Took me some time to work out the sniper teams but I never blamed Battlefront.

 

When you read first person accounts of war and other conflicts you know that strange things happen during the fighting. At the moment I'm reading a book about the experiences of German tank commanders of Panther tanks. It's running the gauntlet blindfolded while being shot at from all sides. That's why I'm not easily shocked or annoyed by CM soldiers who panic or run at the wrong moment. War is the definition of chaos.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[chuckdyke]

6 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

That's why I'm not easily shocked or annoyed by CM soldiers who panic or run at the wrong moment.

I leave the decision making now 80% to the TacAi and it has become far more enjoyable. 

[Artkin]

How can you justify this complaint? The BTR never actually saw the bmp right? Just radio contact?

So you want them to shoot into nothing? Have you ever shot a gun? 

"Gunner load APFSDS!

Fire into the walls, houses, bushes and the street!"

Edited September 18, 2022 by Artkin

[A Canadian Cat]

On 9/16/2022 at 7:10 PM, SS_soldier said:

but your trying to say that the ifv crew would not see it for couple of seconds?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Why should you get instant spotting for all your troops? Why can't the other side spot you first? **** is not fair. Your job as commander is to work out ways to make things unfair in your favor.

People don't have perfect perception that is what the game is simulating. 

[Artkin]

Also something really important to consider with the spotting system is that foliage isn't as fleshed out as it should be. Untrimmed trees in real life have branches that hang lower. That is simulated in the game but it isn't on the screen to be visually represented. Watch the latest Free Whisky video and you'll know what I'm talking about.

[zmoney]

BTR’s in my experience are horrible at spotting. Maybe the worst IFV for spotting in Black Sea.

[Vacillator]

16 hours ago, Artkin said:

Untrimmed trees in real life have branches that hang lower.

@Lucky_Strike has some lovely mods which I think impact on this.  Visually of course.

But i digress .

[Artkin]

40 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

@Lucky_Strike has some lovely mods which I think impact on this.  Visually of course.

But i digress .

I would definitely be interested in such trees!

[Vacillator]

2 minutes ago, Artkin said:

I would definitely be interested in such trees!

I'm sure Mark will be along shortly to confirm or deny my statement.

[ASL Veteran]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:21 PM, SS_soldier said:

I paid full price for a "combat simulator" that cant even decently model LoS. Im frustrated as i've hoped these problems would have been dealt via latest engine update but rest assured the main underlining problems that have plagued this series for over a decade is still alive and well and the devs seem to not care or just put their hands up and expect you to shell out another 60 bucks for the latest "engine upgrade". There is a 20 some-ton vehicle with its engine running, firing a 30mm cannon about 100 meters directly infront of the BTR crew and yet the crew cant see them to target even though its position was already relayed via radio. That crew knew exactly where that bmp was. Yet the bmp will spot the btr first and also open fire first. Brilliant game design lads really hit a homerun with that one. Please fix broken LoS. And for anyone who is new to the series or thinks the LoS is fine, look at the attached screenshot. Please don't start raddling off variables as if that makes up for the fact the crew cant see a massive IFV on the road firing its main gun. Give me a break. Please for the love of God, FIX THE BROKEN LOS. 
 

You should know that the color of the LOS line gives you information.  It even says 'No Line of Sight' which indicates that the issue being shown is not a spotting issue, but rather that the LOS is being blocked by 'something'.  In this case the dark blue is where your unit can see, and the pink part is the distance remaining to the target and is blocked.  Therefore the LOS is being blocked at the point where the dark blue line meets the pink portion of the line.  In this case those 'two trees' appear to be blocking your LOS to the target vehicle.  Visually you may say 'it's just two trees, just look at them', but for the game whatever those two trees represent are sufficient to block your LOS to the target.

[Lucky_Strike]

5 hours ago, Vacillator said:

I'm sure Mark will be along shortly to confirm or deny my statement.

I can neither confirm or deny such rumours ...

5 hours ago, Artkin said:

I would definitely be interested in such trees!

You can grab the Hedgerow Hell mod which has some very lush foliage. Am in the (slow) process of making a newer set of trees and bushes; bit hampered by health issue at the moment so progress is slow unfortunately. You're absolutely right that the original ingame trees etc are all about simulation. They function but don't really give a sense how complex LOS is in real life, especially at ground level.

Any trees I make are purely aesthetic though; but since their effect on LOS is hard coded into the calculations, as you all have pointed out to the OP, it doesn't really matter, it just hopefully adds a bit to immersion.

[Artkin]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:50 PM, Lucky_Strike said:

I can neither confirm or deny such rumours ...

You can grab the Hedgerow Hell mod which has some very lush foliage. Am in the (slow) process of making a newer set of trees and bushes; bit hampered by health issue at the moment so progress is slow unfortunately. You're absolutely right that the original ingame trees etc are all about simulation. They function but don't really give a sense how complex LOS is in real life, especially at ground level.

Any trees I make are purely aesthetic though; but since their effect on LOS is hard coded into the calculations, as you all have pointed out to the OP, it doesn't really matter, it just hopefully adds a bit to immersion.

Does this file work on games other than cmbn?

[Lucky_Strike]

24 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Does this file work on games other than cmbn?

To an extent yes, it's only suitable for summer months, there are no tagged textures yet for autumn etc. Also other titles have some different textures - extra long grass yellow in RT for instance - which BN doesn't have. But on the whole it'll work, and if you are happy to duplicate and rename a few textures you can cover for what is missing eg BN has five tree types whereas RT has seven so duplicating a couple of textures and renaming them can fill the gaps.

I do intend to make sets for each of the the WW2 titles to cover at least all existing textures and all seasons. These could then be used in most of the modern titles though SF2 does have some unique models and texture types which don't appear in other titles so far as I know. Someone would have to adapt and/or add a few extras to cover those.

[Anxel Torrente]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:00 AM, ASL Veteran said:

In this case those 'two trees' appear to be blocking your LOS to the target vehicle. 

I don't think it's the trees blocking the sight but two squirrels humping each other on the trunk to one of the trees. But as this game is children friendly those humping squirrels aren't visible to the player.

[chuckdyke]

If a tank can drive through a tree without damaging it you know it is abstract. IMO the tiles determine the visibility. 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

On 9/16/2022 at 8:21 PM, SS_soldier said:

Please don't start raddling off variables as if that makes up for the fact the crew cant see a massive IFV on the road firing its main gun. Give me a break

Ah but there in lies the problem, it's a simulator that relies on variables to produce results much like real life. What you don't mention in the post is what experience level the relative crews are, what morale state they are in, if they are in C2 then what experience, leadership and morale state are their immediate superiors in? All of this matters and even then it's no guarantee of anything, it just improves the chances of the contact being resolved into a full spot. In the meantime if you know it's there then there's always area-fire.

Is it frustrating sometimes? Yes. Does it mean the LOS is broken? Dunno as I don't know how you quantify what it should do in real life under such conditions taking all the variables into account. At the end of the day if it's ruining your enjoyment of the game and getting you that wound up then don't play it. Or don't play as a nation with Soviet equipment as it tends to suffer from poor spotting.

MMM

[Bulletpoint]

On 9/19/2022 at 1:00 AM, ASL Veteran said:

Visually you may say 'it's just two trees, just look at them', but for the game whatever those two trees represent are sufficient to block your LOS to the target.

This. While far from perfect, LOS is not so much broken in the game as it's heavily abstracted, and in some cases much more abstracted than the graphics we see on the screen. Especially in the case of trees.

The effect is very obvious for units placed inside a forest - LOS will often be completely blocked for positions where it looks like you should be able to target. In other cases, you can draw a target line to places where it looks like LOS should be completely blocked.

[Pelican Pal]

Everyone is focusing on the trees but it looks like you are firing over two rows of low hedge which I've long suspected provide too much concealment in Black Sea. Either because their visuals don't reflect their values or their values or off. 

On 9/16/2022 at 2:21 PM, SS_soldier said:

That crew knew exactly where that bmp was. Yet the bmp will spot the btr first and also open fire first. Brilliant game design lads really hit a homerun with that one.

This is a problem with how CM handles LOS. For an engagement to occur the shooter needs a full spot. Realistically yea the BTR gunner could be like "I'll just pump some rounds over there" but that can't happen in CM without the player directly ordering the vehicle to fire. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Pelican Pal

[chuckdyke]

15 minutes ago, Pelican Pal said:

Realistically yea the BTR gunner could be like "I'll just pump some rounds over there" but that can't happen in CM without the player directly ordering the vehicle to fire. 

If you play Elite or Iron I notice the TacAI fires before full contact is made. It fires in sympathy with units which have full contact. I think trees are flavor objects what determines LOS are the tiles IMO. Trees could be just an indicator of the tiles they are on. What is otherwise the purpose of forest and heavy forest tiles?

[Butschi]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:10 AM, SS_soldier said:

but your trying to say that the ifv crew would not see it for couple of seconds?

In case you are actually interested in an answer to that comment, the thing is this: Apart from all the LOS mechanics the others here have explained at length (to be fair, it took me a while to realize that CM abstracts some things, it is not "what you see is what you get"), the spotting process has a 7 seconds granularity. Let me be more precise, there is a dice roll every second (or so) about whether you get a grey contact icon. On top of that the identification step is a dice roll that takes place in 7 second steps after the contact discovery (so 0s, 7s, 14s...). The crew can get the grey contact icon right away but if it doesn't turn red immediately it will stay so for the next 7s. And it will take the crew at least that long to react because the TacAI does not shoot at unidentified targets.