Broken LoS (yes this thread again)

[SS_soldier]

I paid full price for a "combat simulator" that cant even decently model LoS. Im frustrated as i've hoped these problems would have been dealt via latest engine update but rest assured the main underlining problems that have plagued this series for over a decade is still alive and well and the devs seem to not care or just put their hands up and expect you to shell out another 60 bucks for the latest "engine upgrade". There is a 20 some-ton vehicle with its engine running, firing a 30mm cannon about 100 meters directly infront of the BTR crew and yet the crew cant see them to target even though its position was already relayed via radio. That crew knew exactly where that bmp was. Yet the bmp will spot the btr first and also open fire first. Brilliant game design lads really hit a homerun with that one. Please fix broken LoS. And for anyone who is new to the series or thinks the LoS is fine, look at the attached screenshot. Please don't start raddling off variables as if that makes up for the fact the crew cant see a massive IFV on the road firing its main gun. Give me a break. Please for the love of God, FIX THE BROKEN LOS. 
 

Edited September 16, 2022 by SS_soldier

[Vacillator]

Ermm, welcome to the forum .

I feel your frustration, but to me (and shoot me down here) it's a game, not a real life simulator.  The fact that it is really good at simulating most situations doesn't mean everything will pan out how you expect.

I'll continue to play the game .

[SS_soldier]

Its not really a "feast or famine" thing its more or less just lazy devs. 
Its not like its impossible to improve the current LoS, and its not impossible for the devs to include it in a update. for free. 
 

[A Canadian Cat]

First post, provocative name, grandiose claims, not enough supporting information. I have my suspicions that this post is not really in good faith but lets start out charitably and assume it is.

42 minutes ago, SS_soldier said:

I paid full price for a "combat simulator" that cant even decently model LoS.

I think you are demonstrably wrong about that. Countless situations (even tricky ones) are simulated successfully every day when people play CM. The game simulates LOS and spotting with reality in mind. The reality is people don't spot everything - their brains make it seem like it but we don't. How often have you experienced someone trying to point something out to you but you just don't see it right away. Surely that's something we have all experienced. CM is simulating that.

You screen shot is showing that the BRT has an obstructed LOF to the location of the BMP. It is not out in the open. The crew do know something is there but they have not yet spotted it. What is so wrong with that? Are you expecting that the crew are perfect? Are you expecting that they know what you know?

There is a lot of unknowns in your screen shot as well. Is the BMP sitting and waiting? Is the BTR moving? Other way around? Even if the LOF was unobstructed (yes it is possible for the BMP to have an unobstructed LOF to the BTR while not being the other way around - hint gun height) we cannot tell from that screen shot why.

But none of that points to any bug.

If the bug is you didn't get the outcome you wanted - that's not a bug. If the bug is you feel like it should have gone differently - that's not a bug either. If you bug is the BTR should have known the BMP was there and spotted it first cause reasons - that's not a bug either. If there is a bug here and I highly doubt it then you need to show what the issue is. Because I'm not seeing it. If someone else sees it I'm all ears.

 

42 minutes ago, SS_soldier said:

Im frustrated as i've hoped these problems would have been dealt via latest engine update but rest assured the main underlining problems that have plagued this series for over a decade is still alive and well and the devs seem to not care or just put their hands up and expect you to shell out another 60 bucks for the latest "engine upgrade".

Most of what you are upset about are features of the spotting and LOS system that are designed to be that way. The devs do care. LOL bugs get fixed improvements are made all the time. I am sorry you are butt hurt that things didn't go you way. Roll with it. Stop expecting perfection from your pixel troops because just like real troops they cannot deliver perfection.

Here is the thing: the game is working as designed. It is supposed to be hard. It is supposed to be messy. You, or anyone else, declaring it's broken and has been for years does not make it true. The devs have made numerous design decisions and they are largely happy with them.

 

42 minutes ago, SS_soldier said:

There is a 20 some-ton vehicle with its engine running, firing a 30mm cannon about 100 meters directly infront of the BTR crew and yet the crew cant see them to target even though its position was already relayed via radio. That crew knew exactly where that bmp was. Yet the bmp will spot the btr first and also open fire first.

No the crew new approximately where the BMP was. Once your BTR shows the BMP model when it is selected - that's when the crew knows exactly where the BMP is. That is how the system works. The crew in the BTR are desperately searching for multiple enemies through small vision slits. Suddenly a BMP opens up but they still cannot see the damn thing even where it is supposed to be. Then they start getting hit that doesn't improve their situational awareness any. Sounds pretty realistic to me. Mind you we don't actually know all of what is going on in that situation from just the screen shot.

 

42 minutes ago, SS_soldier said:

Brilliant game design lads really hit a homerun with that one. Please fix broken LoS. And for anyone who is new to the series or thinks the LoS is fine, look at the attached screenshot. Please don't start raddling off variables as if that makes up for the fact the crew cant see a massive IFV on the road firing its main gun. Give me a break. Please for the love of God, FIX THE BROKEN LOS.

And that's not a good way to open a discussion about any potential bug. Here is the thing you can be arrogant and angry but that does not mean anyone else can automatically tell what a bug might be. Quite the opposite, the vast vast majority of complaints, even those phrased with honest intent, are not actually bugs. Sorry I guess I went and rattled off variables. Or actually no sorry at all.

Here is the thing the game is simulating a combat situation all kinds of things effect a crew's ability to spot, morale, training, moving even luck. That's how it is. Heck you could re calculate that turn a number of times and it might not play out the same way every time. That's how the game is supposed to work. It is designed that way.

Sorry you didn't get the result you wanted. If you cannot handle some unpredictability and some bad luck maybe this isn't the game for you. Switch to chess or go or something else where you are in total control of your destiny. Well other than the fact your opponent is trying to win as well.

[A Canadian Cat]

6 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

The fact that it is really good at simulating most situations doesn't mean everything will pan out how you expect.

Actually if it is a good simulation things will not always pan out as you expect. If everything were predictable and known before issuing orders what good would that be as a simulation.

[Codreanu]

It does feel unfair sometimes but CM is ultimately a game of dice rolls where through clever tactics and planning you get to load the dice in your favor, but even then it doesn't mean it is always going to go your way 100% of the time. I do agree with you that the system is not perfect and sometimes you will get bugs where a unit gets spotted through a 1 pixel wide hole through an entire forest, or a unit is in a weird spot where you just cannot draw LOS unless you do a little wiggle dancing to find the right spot, but those are exceedingly rare problems in my experience.

As to your screenshot, a 1v1 standoff against vehicles who can both instakill each other is usually a bad idea. Potentially you could have popped the BTR around a corner for 15 seconds and then back again to limit your exposure, or distract it somehow so it's looking away, maybe blinding it with smoke, maybe an AT section which is a lot smaller target than a BTR? every engagement is unique and requires unique solutions, and in my experience the times I get frustrated with the LOS system are the times where I try and rush through things instead of taking the time to think through every turn about what I can do to minimize my exposure to the enemy while maximizing my chances of killing them. Do what you can to load those dice in your favor.

[chuckdyke]

It is obvious the enemy is obscured behind smoke. He is also using the target tool not as it is intended. If you have LOS and LOF the game gives you full contact, it can't be simpler than that. My tip for the target tool it gives you the choice of area fire or direct fire. Infantry you get a full contact but if you analyze the situation, you see only 1 or 3 trooper's fire. You split and let the other teams do area fire. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by chuckdyke

[SS_soldier]

8 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

It is obvious the enemy is obscured behind smoke. He is also using the target tool not as it is intended. If you have LOS and LOF the game gives you full contact, it can't be simpler than that. My tip for the target tool it gives you the choice of area fire or direct fire. Infantry you get a full contact but if you analyze the situation, you see only 1 or 3 trooper's fire. You split and let the other teams do area fire. 

lol no thats the dust from the 30mm firing. Nice try though. 

[SS_soldier]

2 hours ago, IanL said:

First post, provocative name, grandiose claims, not enough supporting information. I have my suspicions that this post is not really in good faith but lets start out charitably and assume it is.

I think you are demonstrably wrong about that. Countless situations (even tricky ones) are simulated successfully every day when people play CM. The game simulates LOS and spotting with reality in mind. The reality is people don't spot everything - their brains make it seem like it but we don't. How often have you experienced someone trying to point something out to you but you just don't see it right away. Surely that's something we have all experienced. CM is simulating that.

You screen shot is showing that the BRT has an obstructed LOF to the location of the BMP. It is not out in the open. The crew do know something is there but they have not yet spotted it. What is so wrong with that? Are you expecting that the crew are perfect? Are you expecting that they know what you know?

There is a lot of unknowns in your screen shot as well. Is the BMP sitting and waiting? Is the BTR moving? Other way around? Even if the LOF was unobstructed (yes it is possible for the BMP to have an unobstructed LOF to the BTR while not being the other way around - hint gun height) we cannot tell from that screen shot why.

But none of that points to any bug.

If the bug is you didn't get the outcome you wanted - that's not a bug. If the bug is you feel like it should have gone differently - that's not a bug either. If you bug is the BTR should have known the BMP was there and spotted it first cause reasons - that's not a bug either. If there is a bug here and I highly doubt it then you need to show what the issue is. Because I'm not seeing it. If someone else sees it I'm all ears.

 

Most of what you are upset about are features of the spotting and LOS system that are designed to be that way. The devs do care. LOL bugs get fixed improvements are made all the time. I am sorry you are butt hurt that things didn't go you way. Roll with it. Stop expecting perfection from your pixel troops because just like real troops they cannot deliver perfection.

Here is the thing: the game is working as designed. It is supposed to be hard. It is supposed to be messy. You, or anyone else, declaring it's broken and has been for years does not make it true. The devs have made numerous design decisions and they are largely happy with them.

 

No the crew new approximately where the BMP was. Once your BTR shows the BMP model when it is selected - that's when the crew knows exactly where the BMP is. That is how the system works. The crew in the BTR are desperately searching for multiple enemies through small vision slits. Suddenly a BMP opens up but they still cannot see the damn thing even where it is supposed to be. Then they start getting hit that doesn't improve their situational awareness any. Sounds pretty realistic to me. Mind you we don't actually know all of what is going on in that situation from just the screen shot.

 

And that's not a good way to open a discussion about any potential bug. Here is the thing you can be arrogant and angry but that does not mean anyone else can automatically tell what a bug might be. Quite the opposite, the vast vast majority of complaints, even those phrased with honest intent, are not actually bugs. Sorry I guess I went and rattled off variables. Or actually no sorry at all.

Here is the thing the game is simulating a combat situation all kinds of things effect a crew's ability to spot, morale, training, moving even luck. That's how it is. Heck you could re calculate that turn a number of times and it might not play out the same way every time. That's how the game is supposed to work. It is designed that way.

Sorry you didn't get the result you wanted. If you cannot handle some unpredictability and some bad luck maybe this isn't the game for you. Switch to chess or go or something else where you are in total control of your destiny. Well other than the fact your opponent is trying to win as well.

This guy thinks 2 trees can obscure a ifv thats firing its gun 100m from you. 
Your opinion is instantly discarded into the trash. Trees CAN obscure, key word CAN. whats funny is that the exact location of the unit was spotted by several units with radios, but your trying to say that the ifv crew would not see it for couple of seconds? what sense does that make? absolutely none. The unit is either there or its not. 
Not knowing exact location would be if its behind a wall but you can hear the engine, or if it fell back to a spot where its now obscured. Literally having to stare at something for 5-10 crucial seconds until it magically appears out of thin air is NOT realism, and is a broken feature. Accept it or not i dont care because i know there are 100's of other people that share my exact opinion and it took until now for me to be vocal about it. so thanks for contributing nothing other than coming off as a condescending and smug forum dweller. congrats. 

[chuckdyke]

6 minutes ago, SS_soldier said:

lol no thats the dust from the 30mm firing.

Exactly that obscures the view. Sorry I got you down as a troll. 

[SS_soldier]

Just now, chuckdyke said:

Exactly that obscures the view. Sorry I got you down as a troll. 

So then why did it get shot 5-10 seconds after it started firing by another unit? Huh almost as if they could see it, but because of the games broken RNG and crew training stats, it took literally 15 seconds to see a 20ton vehicle thats right infront of them clear as day. you have no argument. Im not going to argue with you if you think that 2 trees can obscure a ifv i advise you to step out of cyberspace for once and touch grass. 

[SS_soldier]

And now your all gonna cry and complain because somebody is criticising the game they've owned for a decade. 
And then mods are gonna shut the thread down to hide the flaws and cracks in the game engine. 
Like clockwork. Sad i thought there was mature people on this forum that would actually contribute to a meaningful discussion about improving LoS. but no all you get is forumd dwelling neckbeards who stroke their own ego. Forum culture is such cancer, jesus christ.

[chuckdyke]

My tip use you move tool as a guide it is a dead straight line. However, the TacAI and the AI have the last word. If you can see the white dot there is a chance the AI gives you a LOS or LOF.

No white dot there is no LOS only as far you can see the blue line.

Played the game for twenty years and enjoyed every minute of it.

[chuckdyke]

Using the target tool will give you years and years of frustration. Instead of plotting direct fire plot area fire on a full contact. Your unit will keep on firing after you lose LOS. This trick I use when using IS2s vs Tigers.

Edited September 16, 2022 by chuckdyke

[SS_soldier]

Theres no argument. Stop defending flawed game mechanics.
Theres no reason why the crew wouldn't shoot at it, albeit with a accuracy reduction which seems like a fair trade off. 
meaning less chance of a critical hit but still supressing the vehicle and its crew which is to be expected because the BTR crew had the initiative and caught the bmp while it was engaging other units. Your telling me a crew is just gonna sit there for 5-10 seconds and then magically start shooting when they know the general area it is? 
thats flawed. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by SS_soldier

[SS_soldier]

Actually if your gonna argue, just flat out say the BTR in the bottom right picture i attached cant see the bmp. 
Atleast ill know now that im either dealing with someone who has slight-severe mental retardation or is blind. 

[chuckdyke]

Full contact and only one soldier is firing.

By micro managing you get more members of the team firing. 

[chuckdyke]

I close hereby this conversation. Look in the mirror and stick a finger in each ear, you find the problem between two fingers. Also change your name on this forum it is offensive. 

[BFCElvis]

5 minutes ago, SS_soldier said:

Actually if your gonna argue, just flat out say the BTR in the bottom right picture i attached cant see the bmp. 
Atleast ill know now that im either dealing with someone who has slight-severe mental retardation or is blind. 

You're not paying attention who have a who have a deeper understanding of the game design than you. You'll be better served to consider what they are saying for a bit than knee-jerk reacting to what they are explaining to you.

[PIATpunk]

It's not here for that.

[Eeee]

If you don't enjoy the game i can gladly take it from you

[Aragorn2002]

7 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Exactly that obscures the view. Sorry I got you down as a troll. 

Either that or a big mouthed idiot.

[chuckdyke]

25 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Either that or a big mouthed idiot.

See how often people miss under perfect conditions. You never see the ten ring. All shooting is actually area fire even bulls-eye shooting.

[Aragorn2002]

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

See how often people miss under perfect conditions. You never see the ten ring. All shooting is actually area fire even bulls-eye shooting.

It certainly is when I'm at the shooting range.

[Blazing 88's]

Obviously a crybaby troll who needs a little Kyle....