How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Bearstronaut]

Regarding the M113, I was at NTC with my brigade last summer and saw a ton of them rolling around the desert. I assume they were part of Fort Irwin’s prepo fleet. Never saw them at my home base.

[Battlefront.com]

1 minute ago, Splinty said:

Don't underestimate the M113. They are armored as well as BMP 1s and 2s. They are excellent as battlefield ambulances, frontline ammo carriers, ways to get tank and IFV recovery crews to damaged AFVs under armor and multiple other logistical tasks.   They will free up other IFVs to do the fighting and give the poor truck drivers a break.

Yeah, the last bit of your post is what finally got me to suck it up and be nice to the M113  That and we're apparently sending over more than 100, which changes the degree it can have a positive impact.

Still, I am a little perturbed that there isn't something more modern that can be sent to them.  Something that also had a chance to fill the role of IFV, which the M113 can not.  The Marders, for example, would be a better pick IMHO.  Especially because they are parked next door in a country that should be doing more to help anyway.

Steve

[Machor]

10 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Finland for example is still happy with the good old MTLB. And M113A2/3 is surely way superior to these old ****s.

Food for thought:

M113 ground pressure: 0.60 kg/cm2

cf. T-34/76: 0.64 kg/cm2

MTLB ground pressure: 0.46 kg/cm2 with standard track; 0.28 kg/cm2 with wide track

cf. Maus 1-man KleinpanzerKampfwagen: 0.4 kg/cm2 - It was the only comparable WW2 vehicle I could find. 

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/maus-1-man-kleinpanzerkampfwagen/

[Battlefront.com]

7 minutes ago, Bearstronaut said:

Regarding the M113, I was at NTC with my brigade last summer and saw a ton of them rolling around the desert. I assume they were part of Fort Irwin’s prepo fleet. Never saw them at my home base.

Traditionally they had a bunch of them substituting for BMPs.  (checks Google and finds out that they've gone one better recently):

[Splinty]

2 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yeah, the last bit of your post is what finally got me to suck it up and be nice to the M113  That and we're apparently sending over more than 100, which changes the degree it can have a positive impact.

Still, I am a little perturbed that there isn't something more modern that can be sent to them.  Something that also had a chance to fill the role of IFV, which the M113 can not.  The Marders, for example, would be a better pick IMHO.  Especially because they are parked next door in a country that should be doing more to help anyway.

Steve

I totally agree about the Marders, Ukraine could use that firepower and FCS to great advantage. In any case the US has hundreds of 113s in storage and boneyards. We can certainly afford to give Ukraine some of them.

[OldSarge]

11 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Traditionally they had a bunch of them substituting for BMPs.  (checks Google and finds out that they've gone one better recently):

Aww, you beat me to it! I'll just add this for the CMCW NTC crowd.

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by OldSarge

[Machor]

8 hours ago, Kinophile said:

May 9th will be Putin's open declaration of war, maybe 3ven v NATO, using the nostalgia and distorted narrative to justify mobilization and more overt aggression v. NATO.

He wants War, to unify and solidify his regime. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Scary as it is, there's expert opinion converging on this. If I had been in Putin's shoes on February 23, I simply wouldn't have launched an all-out war of aggression against Ukraine (I might have done other nasty things, like invade Donbas). If I were in Putin's shoes now, I would escalate to deescalate. Thoughtful thread by Mike Mazarr:

Russian TV is already playing thermonuclear war (Let's see if anyone gets the reference.):

 

[Bearstronaut]

11 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Traditionally they had a bunch of them substituting for BMPs.  (checks Google and finds out that they've gone one better recently):

Nah, they weren’t OPFOR vics. It was the the maneuver dudes in my own brigade using them. It was a Stryker BCT and I had never seen them being used before so I was a little bit confused.

[Battlefront.com]

7 minutes ago, Bearstronaut said:

Nah, they weren’t OPFOR vics. It was the the maneuver dudes in my own brigade using them. It was a Stryker BCT and I had never seen them being used before so I was a little bit confused.

Did you stop a passing soldier and do this (the questions, not the nakedness)?

 

[DesertFox]

 

 

 

[DesertFox]

Sick crapola!

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by DesertFox

[Ultradave]

53 minutes ago, Splinty said:

Don't underestimate the M113. They are armored as well as BMP 1s and 2s. They are excellent as battlefield ambulances, frontline ammo carriers, ways to get tank and IFV recovery crews to damaged AFVs under armor and multiple other logistical tasks.   They will free up other IFVs to do the fighting and give the poor truck drivers a break.

Yes, indeed. They just have to see them for their strengths and flexibility and not expose them needlessly. As stated, there are many tasks that they can help with, that don't involve going toe-to-toe with 20mm auto cannons or worse. I agree with the sentiment - if thee choice is a civilian 4x4 or a M113, guess which I'm going with?

Dave

[Kinophile]

ISW confirms Gerasimov has been "sent to the front".

[DesertFox]

More of the good stuff and I hope a very good supply of Excalibur too.

 

 

[akd]

This gives a good taste of the Russia struggle to clear Azovstahl.  Propaganda, so heavily sanitized (no dead civilians ever shown, no dead or heavily wounded Russian soldiers ever shown, always just destroying “objects” or “Azov”):

 

[DesertFox]

7 minutes ago, Kinophile said:

ISW confirms Gerasimov has been "sent to the front".

I wish him stormy weather and high waves...

Edited April 28, 2022 by DesertFox

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Let's be very clear here, the M113s armour is pretty marginal. Just about enough to stop shrapnel from some shell provided it was not aimed at the M113  in the first place. That's it. And don't take the M113 being **** away from it, it is it's best feature!

When an M113 crew accidentally drives into an active combat zone, they will immediately think "Oh, ****, I shouldn't be in an active combat zone". And the passengers will have a similar stimulus for appropriate behaviour. "Oh ****, we are inside an M113 in an active combat zone. We should get out!" Both of which are the correct attitude to take for ANY APC.

I don't care what armour it has or cannon you stick on it, APCs need to stay the **** away from the actual shooting.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think IFVs may one day largely replace the tank. But it should be an IFV on steroids, with drones, optics out the wazoo, ATGMs and an auto-cannon on steroids, but with a marginal passenger capacity of 2-4. Bring back a cheap Universal Carrier 2.0 for the to and fro-ing.

As much as I once held a view on the Bradley shaped by The Pentagon Wars, I think the M3 Bradley is almost there. It is just the M2 I hate now because it carries too many crunchies, not too few.

[FancyCat]

If I were NATO, I wouldn't undertake any offensive action beyond Ukrainian borders in the event of war being declared. Not even airstrikes on targets firing onto NATO land. Defensive only on NATO soil. If Ukraine wants to undertake it, that's fine, but NATO should absolutely stay away from offensive action that could threaten Russia on home soil. 

That twitter thread concerning EU oil and gas being cut off from Russia, we are already seeing this occur, I think assuming if the infrastructure is there for it, the EU will move to allocate supply for cut off members. 

 

 

[DesertFox]

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by DesertFox

[chuckdyke]

The English language the most powerful weapon of the west. It lets other cultures share their thoughts on the same wavelength. Don't underestimate it. Here is the opposition leader of Belarus imagine if only Russian was her second language. 

 

[chuckdyke]

Russian Armor Protection WW2 and now. More powerful munitions could be harmful for your crew.

Edited April 29, 2022 by chuckdyke

[panzermartin]

On the M113, I have only be transferred inside a cramped BMP 1 but I would probably feel the same safe in an open top SdkfZ from 1939

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, DesertFox said:

More of the good stuff and I hope a very good supply of Excalibur too.

 

 

Right down the road from me.

[akd]

1 hour ago, DesertFox said:

 

 

She forgot the conscription of Ukrainians to fight other Ukrainians.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/04/28/forced-conscription-how-russia-wipes-out-the-male-population-of-occupied-donbas/?swcfpc=1

[Splinty]

1 hour ago, Elmar Bijlsma said:

Let's be very clear here, the M113s armour is pretty marginal. Just about enough to stop shrapnel from some shell provided it was not aimed at the M113  in the first place. That's it. And don't take the M113 being **** away from it, it is it's best feature!

When an M113 crew accidentally drives into an active combat zone, they will immediately think "Oh, ****, I shouldn't be in an active combat zone". And the passengers will have a similar stimulus for appropriate behaviour. "Oh ****, we are inside an M113 in an active combat zone. We should get out!" Both of which are the correct attitude to take for ANY APC.

I don't care what armour it has or cannon you stick on it, APCs need to stay the **** away from the actual shooting.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think IFVs may one day largely replace the tank. But it should be an IFV on steroids, with drones, optics out the wazoo, ATGMs and an auto-cannon on steroids, but with a marginal passenger capacity of 2-4. Bring back a cheap Universal Carrier 2.0 for the to and fro-ing.

As much as I once held a view on the Bradley shaped by The Pentagon Wars, I think the M3 Bradley is almost there. It is just the M2 I hate now because it carries too many crunchies, not too few.

This former Bradley Commander,gunner,driver, and dismount squad leader disagrees. The more the armor and IFVs have dismounts to protect their flanks and root out enemy ATGMs the better