Pistols are better than rifles.

[semmes]

At 48m, in a wood, one Reg+0 pistol from a pl hq of a Straggler Group shoots and kills one Vet-1 sniper, in the second minute, kills the second one in the team; both were firing at him.
If this is an anecdote, what kind of code -in the best game ever, mind, not in a zombie shooter- allows his anecdote to happen?
To be honest, the Russians Vet-1 snipers are blind snipers, they shoot, they miss, they are seen, shot and killed. A German Vet-1 shoots, kills and remains invisible. I am testing the AI in a scenario, it is happening again and again, and again.

Anybody has anything against the Zombie Industry? They make a lot of money, a lot of people working there, earning an honest living. Anybody thinks they only hire the bottom of the class? They even do T-shirts!

On the other hand, it is true that this code is fond of killing prisoners, or surrendering does not mean "surrender. I move my soldiers to the same cell where the surrendering guy is, they share a cigarette, they clap him in the back, they leave and that same guy -because he was in telepathic contact with somebody else, I guess- grab his weapon and starts shooting again. So the only safe course with this code is... Kill all prisoners!
Well, at least we don't have to do the waterboarding...

 

An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep. A. the Great.

[Redwolf]

Automatic pistols are - well - automatic. At short range they are just better than bolt action rifles. 8 shots, 1 throw.

Now, the general accuracy of snipers in CMx2 is a different matter. But the  sub-50m range is probably not at the core of it.

[Bozowans]

The last time I played CMRT I had a small group of soviet snipers take down 14 germans without taking a single loss. 

The real question here is why are you moving them within 50m of the enemy in the middle of the woods?

[Codreanu]

Dunno, I think at that range I would rather be the guy with the pistol who has 8 shots on tap rather than the guy desperately trying to work the bolt on his Mosin while multiple rapid shots are whizzing by. Stuff like this is really the edge case anyway, it would be nice if some of the whacky interactions you can get with the CMx2 engine would happen less often but it happens to both sides equally, and if the margin of error of you winning or not is determined by a random guy getting lucky with his pistol, you might need to rethink your tactics.

[MikeyD]

The movie 'Dirty Harry' gives Clint Eastwood a revolver for a weapon because a revolver, while not the highest technology out there, is still perfectly adequate for killing people. In another thread not long ago someone did a spread sheet tracking pistol hit probabilities at various ranges. The result was, to boil it down, they weren't wonder weapons but they weren't nerf guns either. Even a 10% chance of a first round hit acknowledges that maybe you're going to get hit by the first round.

[Centurian52]

This sounds perfectly plausible. The main weakness of pistols is that they have a very limited effective range, but sub-50 meters is practically point-blank. Also this is about where it becomes damn near impossible to see anything through a sniper scope (very narrow field of view, so a regular un-scoped rifle would be much better at this range). Although frankly any bolt-action rifle will struggle at this range, which is the big selling point of sub-machineguns.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

The movie 'Dirty Harry' gives Clint Eastwood a revolver for a weapon because a revolver, while not the highest technology out there, is still perfectly adequate for killing people. In another thread not long ago someone did a spread sheet tracking pistol hit probabilities at various ranges. The result was, to boil it down, they weren't wonder weapons but they weren't nerf guns either. Even a 10% chance of a first round hit acknowledges that maybe you're going to get hit by the first round.

A double action revolver is perfectly adequate for the home owner. Loaded and ready to go by just pulling the trigger. Semi Auto on the other hand a little more complicated if you suddenly wake up because of some noise. Lots of spouses get a little nervous with a cocked and loaded 1911 under the pillow. They are better if you need to carry one whilst on duty for example. In the Australian Service Match originally designed as a competition between the services the .38 special/ .357 magnum revolver reigned supreme. 9mm Auto's were just not competitive on the other hand in IPSC it was the semi auto which reigned supreme. You can never tell which is better than the other. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by chuckdyke

[FlemFire]

I agree with OP here. It's very anomalous as 50m is actually a very long way for a pistol shot to be even remotely accurate. I've seen people at the gun range literally whiff the paper targets at 10-15m. Of course, they're not infantry in an army, but they're also not in a combat environment juiced to the gills with adrenaline and the threat of death. The slightest tilt in your wrist is an enormous shift in accuracy from barrel to target. That's why you'll get those news stories about police and/or criminals unloading 100+ rounds and hitting like twice.

[slysniper]

This issue has been brought up a dozen times in the past, And the same points have been discussed before.

The game does not get it perfect for sure, I think the pistol is still a little too accurate and bolt action weapons take a very long time between shots. So that does impact if this is realistic.

But the issue was reviewed, stats created and guess what, the game adjusted and its actually better than it once was.

At this point, likely not going to be reviewed and adjusted again.

Like was pointed out, if you are playing smart, really should not be an event that would happen much or impact the outcome of your game.  

 

And as someone mentioned, when close to a target, An old fasion scoped weapon is very hard to aim and get on target, I will take open sights any day at those distances.

 

[Warts 'n' all]

I think I've lost count of the amount of times I've hurled abuse at pistol-packing tankers. And yes, that is rhyming slang.

[A Canadian Cat]

8 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I think I've lost count of the amount of times I've hurled abuse at pistol-packing tankers. And yes, that is rhyming slang.

Stop hurling abuse and start having your guys hurl lead

The best way to avoid this is to have teams in place to deal with the bailing tank crew. Nothing encourages them to move alone better than another fire team or two opening up on them from a short distance away from behind cover.

[Warts 'n' all]

Ah, but what about those occasions when they bail from a tank, run off and hide, then pop up some minutes later when your infantry walk past? When that happens you have to hurl both lead, and abuse.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Warts 'n' all

[A Canadian Cat]

20 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Ah, but what about those occasions when they bail from a tank, run off and hide, then pop up some minutes later when your infantry walk past? When that happens you have to hurl both lead, and abuse.

That sucks - I cannot help you there

[Pelican Pal]

13 hours ago, slysniper said:

But the issue was reviewed, stats created and guess what, the game adjusted and its actually better than it once was.

What patch was this?

[Warts 'n' all]

22 minutes ago, IanL said:

That sucks - I cannot help you there

That's OK mate, I wasn't seeking help as such.  Just having a little rant.

[Vacillator]

58 minutes ago, IanL said:

Nothing encourages them to move alone better than another fire team or two opening up on them from a short distance away

In a recent game I found that having a nearby 37mm gun fire canister at the freshly dismounted crew encouraged them to all fall to the ground injured.  Very effective .

[BornGinger]

13 hours ago, slysniper said:

and bolt action weapons take a very long time between shots.

If you ask the ones accusing Lee Harvey Oswald of killing John Kennedy he was apparently super quick with his bolt action rifle on a not very long distance. But then he was also accused of being a communist so that assumption of his ability to shoot quickly is questioned.

[semmes]

On 2/1/2022 at 3:35 AM, slysniper said:

likely not going to be reviewed and adjusted again.

Why not? I would say there is plenty of room for improvement. I have been told that the firing range for Police Officers armed with pistols is 10-15m; of course, that's RL, nothing to do with this.

What I was doing, why I was doing it or even if I was trying to do anything at all is a completely different matter;  as "the outcome of the game" is. I was talking about what is actually happening in the game, just that.
Would it be different if it's one guy in a barn firing at troops entering the farm, 50m away? By the comments about crew members I would say it's not, it's the same thing all over.

That about killing prisoners, has it been "reviewed and adjusted" too?

 

There are new pilots with fear and there are new pilots without fear but there are no old pilots without fear.
 

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, semmes said:

I would say there is plenty of room for improvement.

In a melee there is an advantage if you have a pistol. I think that is already reflected in the game. You can't fire at a full contact which has already surrendered. What should be reviewed is that you can't give them orders like we could in for example Beyond Overlord. 

 

[semmes]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

In a melee there is an advantage if you have a pistol. I think that is already reflected in the game.

Melee?, WW2?, I hope not.

That is my point, surrendering but not surrendered.

In another game, once they surrender, the enemy gives them orders... so you can get them out of the way. Maybe something about who is closer?, if anybody is in an adjacent cell?, something?

Unless, of course, is just another one -like the only-one-side armour- to add to the pile of "is not happening often", a fantasy game but... "not often.

 

War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military. G. Clemenceau

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, semmes said:

In another game, once they surrender, the enemy gives them orders.

Here it is because enemy units are still in the vicinity which is often a trap. I liked the old system giving them orders and yes Nervous, Rattled, Shaking or Panicking units could shoot prisoners. Which is realistic but leave it to the TacAI. 

[civdiv]

On 2/1/2022 at 12:46 AM, Centurian52 said:

This sounds perfectly plausible. The main weakness of pistols is that they have a very limited effective range, but sub-50 meters is practically point-blank. Also this is about where it becomes damn near impossible to see anything through a sniper scope (very narrow field of view, so a regular un-scoped rifle would be much better at this range). Although frankly any bolt-action rifle will struggle at this range, which is the big selling point of sub-machineguns.

Sub 50 meters is not ‘practically point blank’ for someone shooting a pistol and getting shot at. 48 meters is a long pistol shot at about max range against a man sized target. 5-7 meters is point blank, 15 is medium, 25 is long, and 50 is max effective range.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Agreed, fifty meters is a bit optimistic for a handgun.....This being said I really like 'Pistoleers' in CM (mostly CM:SF2 ex-Taxi Drivers), they can be great fun:

[LukeFF]

If you all expect any good to come from a Semmes topic...well, prepared to be disappointed.