Agenda / Handguns.

[slippy]

3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Any pistol in the game will go 'bang-bang-bang' as fast as you can pull the trigger. That's a luxury bolt action rifles don't have, especially if the rifleman is on his feet and moving. A low chance of hitting the target is not the same as no chance of hitting the target.

People talk of CM casualty rate being too high but we're talking WWII where as many men can die in a single afternoon's battle as died in all eight years of the Iraq war. In the Battle of the Bulge the US saw 89,500 casualties. That averages out to more than 2,000 men a day, every day for 40 days. and that's just the Americans.

On a different subject, I totally agree with the above, but I really think the amount of wounded versus KIA needs looking at

[Simcoe]

This guys is a top tier troll. You have to respect the game.

Imagine spending this much time on a game you don't like lol.

[Ultradave]

9 hours ago, semmes said:

I wonder if they are being paid to say so. I may be wrong.

You may indeed.

 

[danfrodo]

doesn't Semmes have a job?  you seriously have time for pointless crap like this?  Pistols are only rarely even fired in this game, so this, even if really true, doesn't make any discernible difference.  Why would I care is pistols are overly accurate when they are so rarely fired????

Way to focus on a 3rd or 4th order problem.  I hope I never have you on one of my work projects.  We'd all be hunting down the least important issues while watching the whole program burn to the ground. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

6 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Is the complaint that handguns are too effective in CMx2?

I think so.

Hard to be sure.

Either that or trolling.

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

the M1911 pistol is showing a higher kills/min rate than 2 of the rifles

A top grade competitive shooter is more effective with a 1911 than a bolt action rifle at 50 meters. He will empty a magazine centre mass inside 10 seconds in real life. We can assume that officers are trained shooters. But it is stress free shooting. After all a submachine gun is a pistol on steroids if we compare this weapon too.  

[The_Capt]

15 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

A top grade competitive shooter is more effective with a 1911 than a bolt action rifle at 50 meters. He will empty a magazine centre mass inside 10 seconds in real life. We can assume that officers are trained shooters. But it is stress free shooting. After all a submachine gun is a pistol on steroids if we compare this weapon too.  

That, is an excellent point.

[IICptMillerII]

1 hour ago, Simcoe said:

This guys is a top tier troll. You have to respect the game.

Imagine spending this much time on a game you don't like lol.

Yup, and yet all these homies out here feeding the troll still. 

[slysniper]

well, the part that just made me laugh, was it takes 135 rounds to do it, 

Now how many times will the game let me do that any more

I do not have that many pistol bearing men wanting to shoot that many rounds which they dont have at targets that far anymore.

 

At one time, the game did have pistols way too accurate, they adjusted it and now I hardly ever notice a problem.

I do think they are still a little too lethal, but not compared to most everything else in the games.

 

Feed the troll, he is wanting a reaction. but no one is really taking him on, it sounds like this troll has proven to be of no true interest to most and that he is just once again making a fool of himself.

Edited November 16, 2021 by slysniper

[The_Capt]

38 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Yup, and yet all these homies out here feeding the troll still. 

It passes the time and can be entertaining.  Trolls in the wild…we should do a documentary.  That, and that WWZ idea (legally distinct) is growing on me.

Edited November 16, 2021 by The_Capt

[IICptMillerII]

11 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

It passes the time and can be entertaining.  Trolls in the wild…we should do a documentary.  That, and that WWZ (legally distinct) is growing on me.

Ha fair point. Or even a bracket...

[Bozowans]

I must say, CM is a pretty cool game for a zombie shooter. 

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, The_Capt said:

That, is an excellent point.

Thank you but then we take into consideration the scoring method. Hits divided by time in seconds. 30.06 Springfield requires 1 second to score a hit at 50 meters or firing 3 shots for 1 hit inside 3seconds? We take into consideration the sights of a WW2 era 1911 it has more in common with a shotgun sight.

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, slippy said:

wounded versus KIA

Better if you wound the buddy aid takes much longer. If you win the scenario not much difference between wounded or KIA. 

[danfrodo]

I have probably taken 10,000+ casualties in CM games (yeah yeah yeah, I know, it's cuz I suck, blah blah blah ).  And I bet maybe 20 of those casualties are from pistols.  So the good news is that fixing this glaring bug would change my casuality rate by something like 0.1%.  Definitely a buggy game that no one should play. 

There's about a million changes/upgrades we'd all like to see, so I am just surprised anyone would spend so much time on something so inconsequential.

[danfrodo]

and now that I've posted that mean stuff, I wish to apologize for it.  I am just grumpy because work is really hard and I took it out on some feller who is just happily being obsessed w details, which is his business, and which I should just ignore because it doesn't affect me at all whether he's mad about pistols. 

[dbsapp]

15 hours ago, The_Capt said:

@dbsapp come back!!

 

Vlad ordered to postpone our psy-op until AT-4 issue is fixed.

[Drifter Man]

15 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

However, context is king. This is not a first shot kill probability chart. Comparing someone firing a pistol at a target as quickly as possible and easily reloading is not the same as a bolt action rifle. Give each man one bullet and one would see a different result. 

Yes.

15 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

But it is important to remember that this is not saying a pistol is more accurate at that range, just that it’s RoF overcomes it’s inaccuracy relative to bolt action rifles.

Yes.

15 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

PS: tests are invaluable in gathering data, but it’s also important to remember that they are modelling one specific situation: what the tester designed, and that situation may be uncommon or even extremely rare in real battles.

Yes. I aim for test setups that allows easy "all else being equal" comparisons - not necessarily representing usual in-game situations.

12 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Still not clear on how he isolated the pistol shooter but I will take him at his word.  This is really good and detailed testing btw.

Thanks - and I am happy to clarify if you can be more specific. For the M1911, I took a Battalion HQ and emptied all their ammo with area fire. Then I sent them to a supply truck and ordered them to pick up only .45cal. Similar procedure with the other guns.

12 hours ago, The_Capt said:

If I am reading this correctly, sure the old 1911 could hit someone at 80m but it takes 135 rounds to do it.  That is over 19 mags!!

Yes, you are reading it correctly - under the test conditions, the pistol shooter would likely spend all his ammo before hitting anything. I provided each team with a ton of ammo, so it wasn't an issue.

10 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

A top grade competitive shooter is more effective with a 1911 than a bolt action rifle at 50 meters. He will empty a magazine centre mass inside 10 seconds in real life. We can assume that officers are trained shooters.

I believe this can be true in reality, just note that in the CM tests I could not find any difference between Commander/Leader/Gunner/Soldier in handling their weapons. Marksman is the only specialty that made a difference.

[chuckdyke]

11 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

Marksman is the only specialty that made a difference.

Noted it doesn't matter which weapon they pick up during body aid. 

[semmes]

The effectiveness of handguns is roughly comparable to that of rifles at 40 and 80 m.

Not worth a comment... before?

...they shoot at you and you don't take cover,
Any comments?

...mod the AI so that lorries don't go through woods, over trenches or stay in the front line, by the troops they were carrying.
Any comments?

...the AI is going to spend ALL its artillery support in the first target it gets.
Any comments?

...the formula used for -who is- KIA is biased. We are playing with loaded dice.
Any comments?

..."realistic armour. Meaning the "incoming" plate of armour, so it's half-realistic;
Any comments?

...how many people around here have been firing at something 200m away, not in a range, not a clearly-marked, huge target.
Any comments about how such a great game like this captures all that?

Supression...
Are you sure, we just had a thread about it.

(More seminary than scrable)

The British Army always fights its battles uphill, in the pouring rain and at the junction of two map-sheets. Field Marshal Slim.

[ratdeath]

No comments!

 

[LongLeftFlank]

Did Tittles finally get bored of slagging Dorosh on whatever that other forum was, a decade later?

[chuckdyke]

Here is somebody who doesn't know how to play this game. Let him post an AAR of a total victory if the AI is so bad. 

[Bud Backer]

No comments because no evidence. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Bud Backer

[The_Capt]

2 hours ago, semmes said:

The effectiveness of handguns is roughly comparable to that of rifles at 40 and 80 m.

Not worth a comment... before?

I agree, I think we have established that you are totally upside down on this one.  I thought the testing that DM did is some of the most creative I have seen in a very long time.

2 hours ago, semmes said:

...they shoot at you and you don't take cover,
Any comments?

Yes.   

That took about 15 seconds to find btw.  Also, for anyone who has played the game your statement is obviously false.

 

2 hours ago, semmes said:

...mod the AI so that lorries don't go through woods, over trenches or stay in the front line, by the troops they were carrying.
Any comments?

Sure.  You realize that military trucks are by-design all terrain?  They spend billions on making sure that they can go just about where ever.  So modding AI to do as you suggest you 1) be unrealistic and 2) restrain the player for no good reason.  My advice...play better.

2 hours ago, semmes said:

...the AI is going to spend ALL its artillery support in the first target it gets.
Any comments?

AI and arty is one area that I would like to see improvements for in the next engines.  That said, scenario/campaign designers use the reinforcement option to spread the AI use of artillery out in the game.  For onboard indirect fire assets you can use the area fire command to finely tune mortars (you can even set it to triggers).  So no, not "ALL".

2 hours ago, semmes said:

...the formula used for -who is- KIA is biased. We are playing with loaded dice.
Any comments?

Prove it.

2 hours ago, semmes said:

..."realistic armour. Meaning the "incoming" plate of armour, so it's half-realistic;
Any comments?

As opposed to the "outgoing" plate of armor?  In my experience if your veh armor is "outgoing" it means that you, personally, are the next set of "incoming" armour and I am pretty sure the game captures that.

2 hours ago, semmes said:

...how many people around here have been firing at something 200m away, not in a range, not a clearly-marked, huge target.
Any comments about how such a great game like this captures all that?

Probably about half the beta testers and myself personally.  Pretty well.

2 hours ago, semmes said:

Supression...
Are you sure, we just had a thread about it.

This is not a question.

Now for you: when you are participating in social discourse and it has become apparent that your presence is being endured as opposed to valued, should this not lead to some serious self-reflection?  Comment?

Edited November 17, 2021 by The_Capt