Some Minefield and Assault Tactics Findings

[Probus]

Well I thought I would play around with assault tactics.  Here are a few things I have found out so far:

• Detected minefield marker is (of course) red.
• Marked minefield marker is yellow.
• Engineers (Pioneers) sitting on  a minefield does not necessarily detect it.
• Engineers moving slowly through a minefield can still set off a mine.
• Engineers hunting through a minefield seems to find it faster.  Re-re-checking this.
• Engineering squads split up into some team types can loose most of their minefield abilities.  One they keep is the ability to set them off. 
• Have not been able to get the "Clear Minefield" function to show up in anyway other than in the hotkey list outside of the game.

Related Assault findings:

• Attacking a bunker from the side is much easier to destroy than in the front it would seem.
• Flamethrowers do wonders  at suppressing and destroying bunkers.
• USE FLAMETHROWERS BY THEMSELVES!!! 

  • Using a platoon to assault a bunker using various tactics.  Squad 3 in rear providing suppression.  All three had flamethrowers in their squad. When the rear squad (3) decided to use the flamethrower to suppress the bunker, I found that squads 1 and 2 went from 20 soldiers total to 1 wounded soldier and 19 corpses.  HQ went was left with 1 wounded soldier and 3 corpses.  Squad 3 was just fine and also completely knocked out the bunker.  23 KIA and 2 WIA in ONE shot.  Wow, I am happy I learned that in testing.

See the troopers running away from the flametrooper.  They have learned this.

[Bulletpoint]

35 minutes ago, Probus said:

USE FLAMETHROWERS BY THEMSELVES!!! 

• Using a platoon to assault a bunker using various tactics.  Squad 3 in rear providing suppression.  All three had flamethrowers in their squad. When the rear squad (3) decided to use the flamethrower to suppress the bunker, I found that squads 1 and 2 went from 20 soldiers total to 1 wounded soldier and 19 corpses.  HQ went was left with 1 wounded soldier and 3 corpses.  Squad 3 was just fine and also completely knocked out the bunker.  23 KIA and 2 WIA in ONE shot.  Wow, I am happy I learned that in testing.

 

Are you saying flamethrowers cause friendly casualties now? That's new.

 

[Bulletpoint]

38 minutes ago, Probus said:

Have not been able to get the "Clear Minefield" function to show up in anyway other than in the hotkey list outside of the game.

That's because it's only used for flail tanks.

[Probus]

6 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Are you saying flamethrowers cause friendly casualties now? That's new.

 

Yessir.  They now prescribe to the philosophy of there is no "friendly" fire.

5 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

That's because it's only used for flail tanks.

Thanks for that tidbit of information.  You just saved me a lot of time.

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, Probus said:

They now prescribe to the philosophy of there is no "friendly" fire.

Wow.  Glad to find that out.  Certainly, demo charges are harmless to friendlies.   Common wisdom in CM2 was that only something like 50cal or bigger caused friendly casualties.  (Although have gotten suspicious that friendlies can be hurt by small arms ricochets.)   

[Vergeltungswaffe]

7 hours ago, Erwin said:

(Although have gotten suspicious that friendlies can be hurt by small arms ricochets.)   

I have absolutely seen friendly casualties from ricochets in multiple titles.

Particularly FI as there are so many tough buildings.

[Bufo]

10 hours ago, Erwin said:

Wow.  Glad to find that out.  Certainly, demo charges are harmless to friendlies.   Common wisdom in CM2 was that only something like 50cal or bigger caused friendly casualties.  (Although have gotten suspicious that friendlies can be hurt by small arms ricochets.)   

In almost all my battles I have casualties caused by friendly fire - mainly because of RPGs, grenades and underbarrel grenades.

For me it was always like this. What would be surprising for me if it wasnt like this.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bufo

[Probus]

4 hours ago, Bufo said:

In almost all my battles I have casualties caused by friendly fire - mainly because of RPGs, grenades and underbarrel grenades.

For me it was always like this. What would be surprising for me if it wasnt like this.

I've only been playing CM for a matter of months now, but I learned really quickly that not only was there friendly fire (from a tank shell wizzing through trees over the heads of my infantry and finding a trunk of said trees).  I also learned quite painfully that tank shells can go right through a vehicle, knock it out, and continue through to a second vehicle and explode.  I've seen several dual kills.  I've yet to see a shell slice through 2 AFVs to kill a third.  That would make a good video clip though! (if its possible).

(Gets on soapbox  ) That also brings up my 2nd pet peeve with CM.  I could see a shell going straight through a half track and destroying a Sherman behind it.  I cannot imagine a tank shell going through the side turret of a Challenger 2 tank taking out the APC behind it.  Can that really happen IRL?

My 1st pet peeve are reinforcements being able to pop up like they were transported down from the Enterprise AND THEN shooting up a column of tanks all on the SAME turn.  Reinforcements should arrive and both players should be able to at least react to them in some way.  Even if it is just sound contact markers right before they materialize.  I'm not sure if its poor scenario design or limitations in the engine as it is.

(Gets off soapbox  )

Really, that's not very many pet peeves for a game.  I'm sure others have others.

[MOS:96B2P]

20 hours ago, Probus said:

• Using a platoon to assault a bunker using various tactics.  Squad 3 in rear providing suppression.  All three had flamethrowers in their squad. When the rear squad (3) decided to use the flamethrower to suppress the bunker, I found that squads 1 and 2 went from 20 soldiers total to 1 wounded soldier and 19 corpses.  HQ went was left with 1 wounded soldier and 3 corpses.  Squad 3 was just fine and also completely knocked out the bunker.  23 KIA and 2 WIA in ONE shot.  Wow, I am happy I learned that in testing.

If I'm understanding this correctly;  casualties caused by friendly fire from a flamethrower.  Which CM title are you seeing this in?  Also which flamethrower? 

[George MC]

28 minutes ago, Probus said:

My 1st pet peeve are reinforcements being able to pop up like they were transported down from the Enterprise AND THEN shooting up a column of tanks all on the SAME turn.  Reinforcements should arrive and both players should be able to at least react to them in some way.  Even if it is just sound contact markers right before they materialize.  I'm not sure if its poor scenario design or limitations in the engine as it is.

(Gets off soapbox  )

Really, that's not very many pet peeves for a game.  I'm sure others have others.

It can be either poor design, or as often happens, players are way more aggressive than the designer, or playtesters (assuming it was tested) could foresee. Its more prone to happen on small maps. I use a reinforcements slot to warn the player of approaching enemy units, but players often miss this.

As an anecdote. In the very, very early days of CMSF (where there were significant map size limitations) i did a scenario which involved a Stryker ATGM unit holding off an attacking Syrian armoured unit. Now everyone who play tested this, and myself, played cautiously and tended to stick to 'our' side of the map (the briefing gave strong intel to 'hold the line'.

However one player, when the game was released played way more aggressively and basically assaulted the Syrian rear lines with their Stryker platoon. They ended up right at the back of the Syrian side of the map, just about the time the Syrian main body arrived on the map...

[Probus]

36 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

If I'm understanding this correctly;  casualties caused by friendly fire from a flamethrower.  Which CM title are you seeing this in?  Also which flamethrower? 

CMFI using a Pioneer company.  The squads have Flammenwerfer 41 Flamethrowers.  I'll see if I can get a video  capture of this.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Probus

[MOS:96B2P]

20 minutes ago, Probus said:

CMFI using a Pioneer company.  The squads have Flammenwerfer 41 Flamethrowers.  I'll see if I can get a video  capture of this.

I can't replicate it.  I tried with them spotting and not spotting the friendly unit.  CMFI v2.11 on Iron.

I also did quick tests in CMRT and CMBN using US portable flamethrower & a German tracked flamethrower.

 

[Probus]

17 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I can't replicate it.  I tried with them spotting and not spotting the friendly unit.  CMFI v2.11 on Iron.

I also did quick tests in CMRT and CMBN using US portable flamethrower & a German tracked flamethrower.

 

 @MOS:96B2P  I can't replicate it again either.  But something happened in front of a US bunker (M1 57mm) my first playthrough that wiped out 2 1/2 squads of men simultaneously.  Looked to me like it was the flamethrower destroying the bunker. 

• I had the bunker crew set to hide so that I could test attacking the bunker. 
• The engineers close to the bunker were set to assault.
• I saw explosions from the satchel charges but they didn't seem to do any damage to anyone.
• Then the flamethrower opened up and everyone died.

Do bunkers have any kind of special ability that I'm not aware of (I am not aware of a lot of things )?  Maybe they panicked?  Does ammo detonate like that?  Dang.  What the heck happened if it wasn't the flamethrower.

[MOS:96B2P]

18 minutes ago, Probus said:

What the heck happened if it wasn't the flamethrower.

  Welcome to the world of Combat Mission testing my friend.    

I often replay an event from different angles and conduct multiple re-tests.  Sometimes I find the cause of an incident is different than I originally thought.  I generally save every turn when testing so I can refer back to it and share it to get the opinions of other testers. 

The important thing is you are testing and contributing to the forum.  Thank you.  +1 to your original post which has useful information. 

It seems you are interested in engineers and how they work.  Below are some of my notes on Engineers you might find useful:

 

Engineers can Mark Mines in the same action spot as the mines or from an adjacent action spot. 

Engineers can Mark a friendly minefield.

If engineers Mark Mines from an adjacent action spot they will crawl into the mine A/S when mine marking is completed.

The more eyes in an engineer team the easier to spot mines.  (5 man team finds mines easier than a 2 man team)

Regular engineers, that are not suppressed, can mark one minefield action spot in 3-4 minutes.

Engineers can most reliably and safely locate unidentified minefields using the Slow command.  

Marking a minefield substantially reduces the chance of triggering a mine for infantry traversing the minefield.

Antitank minefields can be marked but there is no effect. Infantry can traverse them without risk and vehicles don't benefit from marking.

Friendly mines will destroy friendly troops and vehicles. 

Mines cannot be placed on bridges.  They can go in the river bottom under the bridge but have no effect on bridge traffic.

AT and AP mines can be placed in deep water/deep ford/shallow ford and will detonate when a vehicle or infantry pass through the A/S.

US Breach teams contain engineers and can also mark minefields.  

Minefields can be neutralized by heavy artillery (150mm+), if it scores a direct hit.

Minefields can be neutralized by a blast from a demo charge if there is a blastable obstacle (wire) in the action spot.

Anti-personnel mines have a cumulative effect on vehicle mobility. ie: Number of Action Spots a vehicle can generally cross in an AP

    Minefield before immobilization: Armor= 2 A/S, light Armor= 1 A/S, Transport= Destroyed.

Red sign with a skull and crossbones = Active non-marked minefield.

Off white sign (yellow in CMBS) with a skull and crossbones = A marked minefield. 

Green sign with a white X = Neutralized minefield (all mines detonated)

Demo charges can be used to breach floors/ceilings but is impractical.  There is always a passage (staircase) between floors so it is

    unnecessary to create a passage.  OpFor can shoot through floors at the breach team.   

Try never to have a Blast order that incorporates "natural" troop holes. (If you blast a vehicle size hole in bocage, that includes a

     pre-existing natural troop hole, your vehicles may still not be able to traverse it.)

When using demos outside you may use Face command with Blast waypoints.  (Face command inside is not reliable)  

To use demos inside locate Blast waypoint on other side of wall. Including exterior above ground level walls. 

Engineer squads need to be split into teams or they will use multiple demo charges for a single breach. Test040517

In CMBS Breach kits (carried by non-engineers) can only be used to breach walls/buildings but not used against vehicles or barbwire. 

Engineer teams that are not suppressed have the following Blast times: Regular 15sec, Veteran 10sec, Conscript 37sec.

Engineer teams can shoot while executing a Blast order. The time to Blast is not effected. Test040617 

Non-engineer teams, with demo charges, don’t follow the standard engineer time limits for blasting.           

  

[MOS:96B2P]

@Probus  Below is an old forum topic on flamethrowers.  However, Photobucket vandalized the old screenshots. 

 

 

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Probus said:

What the heck happened if it wasn't the flamethrower.

It does seem like any kind of fire (ie small arms) can hurt friendlies through ricochets.  Am wondering if flamethrower acts like a gun in that respect and maybe the flames ricocheted onto the troops.

[Bulletpoint]

8 hours ago, Probus said:

But something happened in front of a US bunker (M1 57mm) that wiped out 2 1/2 squads of men simultaneously.

Nothing unusual happened on that day, and those men did not exist. You will not speak to anyone about this.

 

 

[ng cavscout]

On 11/13/2020 at 9:50 AM, MOS:96B2P said:

  Welcome to the world of Combat Mission testing my friend.    

I often replay an event from different angles and conduct multiple re-tests.  Sometimes I find the cause of an incident is different than I originally thought.  I generally save every turn when testing so I can refer back to it and share it to get the opinions of other testers. 

The important thing is you are testing and contributing to the forum.  Thank you.  +1 to your original post which has useful information. 

It seems you are interested in engineers and how they work.  Below are some of my notes on Engineers you might find useful:

 

Engineers can Mark Mines in the same action spot as the mines or from an adjacent action spot. 

Engineers can Mark a friendly minefield.

If engineers Mark Mines from an adjacent action spot they will crawl into the mine A/S when mine marking is completed.

The more eyes in an engineer team the easier to spot mines.  (5 man team finds mines easier than a 2 man team)

Regular engineers, that are not suppressed, can mark one minefield action spot in 3-4 minutes.

Engineers can most reliably and safely locate unidentified minefields using the Slow command.  

Marking a minefield substantially reduces the chance of triggering a mine for infantry traversing the minefield.

Antitank minefields can be marked but there is no effect. Infantry can traverse them without risk and vehicles don't benefit from marking.

Friendly mines will destroy friendly troops and vehicles. 

Mines cannot be placed on bridges.  They can go in the river bottom under the bridge but have no effect on bridge traffic.

AT and AP mines can be placed in deep water/deep ford/shallow ford and will detonate when a vehicle or infantry pass through the A/S.

US Breach teams contain engineers and can also mark minefields.  

Minefields can be neutralized by heavy artillery (150mm+), if it scores a direct hit.

Minefields can be neutralized by a blast from a demo charge if there is a blastable obstacle (wire) in the action spot.

Anti-personnel mines have a cumulative effect on vehicle mobility. ie: Number of Action Spots a vehicle can generally cross in an AP

    Minefield before immobilization: Armor= 2 A/S, light Armor= 1 A/S, Transport= Destroyed.

Red sign with a skull and crossbones = Active non-marked minefield.

Off white sign (yellow in CMBS) with a skull and crossbones = A marked minefield. 

Green sign with a white X = Neutralized minefield (all mines detonated)

Demo charges can be used to breach floors/ceilings but is impractical.  There is always a passage (staircase) between floors so it is

    unnecessary to create a passage.  OpFor can shoot through floors at the breach team.   

Try never to have a Blast order that incorporates "natural" troop holes. (If you blast a vehicle size hole in bocage, that includes a

     pre-existing natural troop hole, your vehicles may still not be able to traverse it.)

When using demos outside you may use Face command with Blast waypoints.  (Face command inside is not reliable)  

To use demos inside locate Blast waypoint on other side of wall. Including exterior above ground level walls. 

Engineer squads need to be split into teams or they will use multiple demo charges for a single breach. Test040517

In CMBS Breach kits (carried by non-engineers) can only be used to breach walls/buildings but not used against vehicles or barbwire. 

Engineer teams that are not suppressed have the following Blast times: Regular 15sec, Veteran 10sec, Conscript 37sec.

Engineer teams can shoot while executing a Blast order. The time to Blast is not effected. Test040617 

Non-engineer teams, with demo charges, don’t follow the standard engineer time limits for blasting.           

  

Is there a way to clear an obstacle with an engineer team or squad without moving into the minefield afterwards? That hush hush scenario you and I have been talking about is the first time I've had to mark minefields behind an obstacle. I didn't realize you had to move into the mines to discover them, so, this all new to me.

[MOS:96B2P]

6 minutes ago, ng cavscout said:

Is there a way to clear an obstacle with an engineer team or squad without moving into the minefield afterwards? 

There are a few different drills you can use.  Below is a drill that probably works for what you are attempting.    

Wall, Bocage & Wire Blast Drill¹

1. First turn give the demo team a Quick waypoint² (point) next to the obstacle.

2. Highlight and give the Quick waypoint a Face order into the obstacle.

3. Give demo team Blast point 1or2 parallel A/S away from Quick/Face point.

4. Demo team will Blast at the location & direction of the Quick/Face point.

5. After the Blast the demo team will reposition to the Blast point.

Notes: 1)Drill is not reliable with building walls. 2) If team starts next to obstacle, Face order will be cancelled by creation of the Blast waypoint.    

[Freyberg]

I always assumed flamethrowers would cause friendly fire - they should.

The rule against friendly fire with small arms is because the player lacks the fine control you would have in real life not to shoot your own men with a handheld firearm. For that reason, casualties to ricochets also make sense.

But a flamethrower is an imprecise, indiscriminate weapon, if you don't order your men to stand back when it's being fired, you should be court-martialed...

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Freyberg said:

But a flamethrower is an imprecise, indiscriminate weapon, if you don't order your men to stand back when it's being fired,

It has a similar role as the hand grenade. In the case of the flamethrower, the warning: "Fire in the hole!" must be taken literally. Funny enough it seems to apply only with explosives. 

[A Canadian Cat]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:48 PM, Freyberg said:

would cause friendly fire - they should.

and they do. Just managed to do it in a CMFI game a few weeks ago.

[Probus]

29 minutes ago, IanL said:

and they do. Just managed to do it in a CMFI game a few weeks ago.

Really?  I thought I saw the same thing but was never able to reproduce it. 

[A Canadian Cat]

On 3/15/2021 at 11:57 AM, Probus said:

Really?  I thought I saw the same thing but was never able to reproduce it. 

In my case I had engineers breach a building / wall combo and I timed it so it would happen just at the end of the turn - a couple of the engineers took a few steps into the building. Then next turn I tried to time the flame thrower to fire into the building through the hole with enough of a pause to let the engineers run out. I failed to get the timing right and one of my guys got caught in the building clearing flames.

[Bulletpoint]

On 3/15/2021 at 4:27 PM, IanL said:

and they do. Just managed to do it in a CMFI game a few weeks ago.

If they do, that's something new. I'm thinking your casualty must have been caused by an unseen enemy.

Here's what @MOS:96B2P found out some years ago.