Hey Battlefront where's the Spec Ops Units?

[JulianJ]

SF2 doesnt seem to have the special forces that would be operating in the area - the SAS and SBS,  Delta force, Green Berets, Navy SEALS, SPETZNAZ, and local special forces, etc, I've probably omitted some.

BF what are you going to do about that?  I would pay for some  dlc with these units.

 

[BarendJanNL]

What about every nation a SOF unit, so for example:

US army: 75th Ranger reg

USMC: Marine Raider reg

UK: SAS

Canadian: JTF2

German: KSK

Dutch: KCT

Syria: syrian special mission forces

[Frenchy56]

Those specops you're talking about would most of the time be doing spooky stuff far behind enemy lines (except maybe the Rangers and of course the already existing Syrian special forces). Combat Mission is not the best at simulating specops stuff, since it's mostly focused on frontline combined arms combat, so let's not stray too far from the subject matter.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Frenchy56

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Oh, they can be found, here & there. 

 

[sburke]

2 hours ago, JulianJ said:

SF2 doesnt seem to have the special forces that would be operating in the area - the SAS and SBS,  Delta force, Green Berets, Navy SEALS, SPETZNAZ, and local special forces, etc, I've probably omitted some.

BF what are you going to do about that?  I would pay for some  dlc with these units.

 

Tactical operations at that scale don't really fit for this game engine.  To do those justice you'd need a smaller scale and actual individual unit order capability.  You might also find it excessively boring. 

Your mission - take up a remote observation post and monitor the village from hiding for two days..... report your findings later.  Larger operations on the scale of Mogadishu with Delta, the Rangers etc can be done.  A little creativity even w/o modding.   I wanted to see about doing Generation Kill.  Thing is ToE for Marine Recon seems to be a platoon is 3 "squads" of 6 men each.  So I took a Marine platoon, assigned headcount to 50%, combined and then split the resulting squads to have 3 and 4 man teams depending on how CM split them up.  I then got a bunch of Hummvees dismounted the crews and mounted up Assassin 1 and off they went.

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by sburke

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'd probably strip a platoon right back to the HQ and then reassemble it with 'Individual Teams' to give it some extra capability, but the overall effect would be much the same. 

PS - Nice map.....What is it? 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[sburke]

33 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I'd probably strip a platoon right back to the HQ and then reassemble it with 'Individual Teams' to give it some extra capability, but the overall effect would be much the same. 

PS - Nice map.....What is it? 

The one I already gave you

I considered adding individual teams but what I ended up with is I think closer to actual. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by sburke

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 minutes ago, sburke said:

The one I already gave you

It looks a bit different to me at the moment.....Kinda jungly! 

[MikeyD]

One of the training scenarios had Syrian units labeled as 'Opfor' units with the battle location a training ground in Jordan. Another scenario was Blue-on-Blue located in Germany before the war. Another scenario pegged Syrian 'fighters' as Lebanese Hezbollah out of Tripoli, with combatants as Blue allied Druze militiamen.. Basically you can call (or imagine) any unit to be anything. Put a Humvee, an elite sniper team and an FO on the map and call them 'Special forces' or 'SEALS' or 'mercenaries' or 'CIA operatives' or anything you want. That's what the scenario designers do!

[sburke]

Iirc correctly Chris used a mod on US Marines to create a special ops team working with US airborne for the scenario “the snitch” in the TF Panther campaign. 

[puje]

One of the main issues with CM is that it is very difficult do anything other than "Overwhelming Blue attacks objectives - Red tries to hold on to those objectives". The moment you divert from that recipe, there will often be some way to break the game's scoring system. It is simply not built with enough flexibility. If you are creative enough though, you can work around it.

But I still think it would be nice if they included at least some of the SFO units.

Edited July 8, 2019 by puje

[Thewood1]

That is a scenario design issue.  Nothing stops you, or anyone else, from building a highly motivated, fit, and high morale red army that can kick blue ass.  And CM2's scoring flexibility is one of best around in wargames.  If you can't take advantage of that, you're doing something wrong.

The main issue is that people are stuck in the story line in Iraq and Syria (in the game) where most scenarios are blue-based shoot em ups.  If you want a challenge, jump in and adjust the score, unit motivation, experience, and morale.  You're blue soldiers will regret it.

As stated above, why do you need them included?  You can build them yourself.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Thewood1

[Pelican Pal]

IIRC there was a user-made CM:BN campaign detailing the exploits of paratroopers during D-Day and D+1. The player was nominally the Lt. in leading the men. Small sized units in a campaign format with special "choose your action" missions

You would have a standard mission and then the follow up would be a road with two objectives on either end of it. 

Obj. 1: Ambush the upcoming German Convoy
Obj. 2: Stay hidden

Which would then change how the next mission played out. Choice 1 would lead to a quick mission where a convoy of German equipment is ambushed. Allowing you to gain an advantage in the next battle if you can keep your losses low.  While choice 2 would keep the element of surprise during the next battle although there would be more enemy forces there.

---

Using small single man units (detailed in the latter portions of this thread )

and a "choose your own adventure" campaign storyline would allow you to make a very enjoyable series of SF missions. Where watching the town for 2 days could be abstracted out as choices made in the mission selection portions.

[domfluff]

On 7/8/2019 at 9:10 PM, Thewood1 said:

That is a scenario design issue.  Nothing stops you, or anyone else, from building a highly motivated, fit, and high morale red army that can kick blue ass.  And CM2's scoring flexibility is one of best around in wargames.  If you can't take advantage of that, you're doing something wrong.

The main issue is that people are stuck in the story line in Iraq and Syria (in the game) where most scenarios are blue-based shoot em ups.  If you want a challenge, jump in and adjust the score, unit motivation, experience, and morale.  You're blue soldiers will regret it.

As stated above, why do you need them included?  You can build them yourself.

 

Whilst I agree with your fundamental point, there are some baked-in differences with equipment that make symmetric scenarios in CMSF tough.

In particular, Bradleys overmatch pretty much everything on the Syrian side, and can effectively take on the full range of Syrian gear.

Now, this is still a scenario design issue. I do think it's harder to balance asymmetric scenarios, but it's not impossible. 

I don't agree that CMSF has to be about "overwhelming blue attacks" - there's certainly a lot more wiggle room there - but it's certainly the easiest scenario type to make with the tools available.  Red on Red (regular or irregular) is a lot easier to balance.



 

 

[slysniper]

Having a player that actually knows how to play the reds and give them good equipment can add to the challenge of getting some balance.

But agree, I would love some scenarios designed that lets the reds have the advantage and allows them to tear up blue.

And yes it can be done, I have some I have made, just never been made to submit out to the public.

[JulianJ]

Yes, I can see how you might design a small SF scenario.  My issue is that special ops forces often have different weapons to the regular forces. The SAS are a particular case, toting the M16/M203 instead of the regular British army rifle. The ill-fated Bravo Two Zero mission in Iraq of 8 men had 4 x 16/203s, and 4 x FN minimis (plus an M72 each). Which is a lot of firepower for two bricks of troops.

I would disagree with the posters who said SF wouldn't be on the battlefield but off doing sneaky stuff elsewhere.  It seems to me nowadays with lots of irregular combat that there are all sorts of operators, spooks and mercs ("contractors" or PMCs) mixed up with regular soldiers on many areas of battle - that certainly seems the case in both Syria and Ukraine from what I have read.

I think this a gap and it would be nice to have some of these, in regular battles and QBs.

[MikeyD]

When CMSF1 first came out (many years ago) Steve was pretty adamant that the title isn't an Iraq occupation sim. He purposefully left out equipment and forces peculiar to an occupation army.

[Boche]

Good thing about the current version of the engine one can create similar looking Spec Ops units, attaching sniper teams, Jtacs, vehicles etc etc. So its just up the creators imagination.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

3 hours ago, JulianJ said:

Yes, I can see how you might design a small SF scenario.  My issue is that special ops forces often have different weapons to the regular forces. The SAS are a particular case, toting the M16/M203 instead of the regular British army rifle. The ill-fated Bravo Two Zero mission in Iraq of 8 men had 4 x 16/203s, and 4 x FN minimis (plus an M72 each). Which is a lot of firepower for two bricks of troops.

Pretty sure I know a man who could make this happen.....He's a bit busy at the moment with oriental engagements, but I reckon something could probably be done. 

2 hours ago, Boche said:

Good thing about the current version of the engine one can create similar looking Spec Ops units, attaching sniper teams, Jtacs, vehicles etc etc. So its just up the creators imagination.

This is the biggest part. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Sequoia]

Despite claims of Battlefront "predicting" the future, the counterfactual CMSF Syrian War and the current real world Syrian Civil War are nothing alike, nor is the CMSF war anything like the post 9-11Afghanistan  War or the Iraq War after the fall of Baghdad.  Use of Special Ops forces in these real wars and how they would be used in support of a mostly conventional war as presented in CMSF may not necessarily be the same.

[Vinnart]

I play around with doing a Spec Ops quick real time battle now and then. Basically, set the game up with one sides troops maxed in every aspect; experience, morale ect..You will get a much smaller, but much better quality force than average pixeltruppen. Only issue is the smaller force will have enough ammo issues so suggest some vehicles in the scenario. These are fun intense fights especially in urban combat.

 

[Boche]

Some of my favourite sceanarios have involved make shift spec ops. 3.10 to Yuma comes to mind, the special forces evacuation mission in the stock campaign, and a couple of them in other player made campaigns and scenarios.. If done right they can be really cool to play.