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BFC - Time to Rethink the 'Roadmap'?


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13 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

I play hotseat against my dad when he comes over, and my little brother.

Nice.

13 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

I take it you're not one of those people who can play chess against themselves?

LOL - I can't play chess very well against any one. Maybe I would have more success against myself :)

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Lots of ideas and I understand everyone has their favorites, or the course they'd like to see Combat Mission take and that's understandable and quite useful even. So I'd like to throw mine in as well.

Dont get me wrong - I loved BFCs originally stated roadmap for all the CMx2 games. However as time goes on its becoming more apparent that perhaps the games arent coming out as quickly as BFC tho

To address a couple of the last few posts. Yes, there are more campaigns than what I listed. I have about 20 for CMBN, mostly thanks to a dropbox that forum member Blazing 88s was kind enough to provi

Its interesting this got brought up.

If Im playing say CM or Crusader Kings 2 I can mentally make up a semblance of a plan and some what if contingencies and generally follow through.

I know how to play chess amd have since I was 8 or 9. Yet Ive noticed -(though admittedly last time I sat down and played chess with someone it was in the type of place you kinda have to make sure youre aware of whats going on around you in real life - yet this didnt affect me with cards) - Ive noticed with chess for whatever reason Im totally playing a reactionary game from the first move almost. Even worse I cant seem to gin up in my head any type of coherent plans in chess besides looking for openings to get shots in; really me playing chess is like me going to a bar getting drunk and fighting a sober prize fighter - any major hits I get in will be say because theres a pool stick sitting there (lol)

 

I wonder if because my age (33) if my generation and those after are starting to get spoiled visually etc to where if I see some more life like rendition my imagination can wrap around it but in the black and white chess board its too abstract?

Edited by Sublime
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1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Its interesting this got brought up.

If Im playing say CM or Crusader Kings 2 I can mentally make up a semblance of a plan and some what if contingencies and generally follow through.

I know how to play chess amd have since I was 8 or 9. Yet Ive noticed -(though admittedly last time I sat down and played chess with someone it was in the type of place you kinda have to make sure youre aware of whats going on around you in real life - yet this didnt affect me with cards) - Ive noticed with chess for whatever reason Im totally playing a reactionary game from the first move almost. Even worse I cant seem to gin up in my head any type of coherent plans in chess besides looking for openings to get shots in; really me playing chess is like me going to a bar getting drunk and fighting a sober prize fighter - any major hits I get in will be say because theres a pool stick sitting there (lol)

 

I wonder if because my age (33) if my generation and those after are starting to get spoiled visually etc to where if I see some more life like rendition my imagination can wrap around it but in the black and white chess board its too abstract?

In the past I was playting chess with a friend, and very good I can say,   the particularity of these chess was lot little bottle of alcool with differentt taste...the diffence were differents colors and a draw of a tower or king...was really funny...only in the time we were a little of effect of alcool taking chess pieces from your opponent cos you have to drink it direclty and in one drop well was not too much but anyway ... Sorry was not a relevant story !!

 

Edited by 3j2m7
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1 hour ago, Sublime said:

I know how to play chess amd have since I was 8 or 9. Yet Ive noticed -(though admittedly last time I sat down and played chess with someone it was in the type of place you kinda have to make sure youre aware of whats going on around you in real life - yet this didnt affect me with cards) - Ive noticed with chess for whatever reason Im totally playing a reactionary game from the first move almost. Even worse I cant seem to gin up in my head any type of coherent plans in chess besides looking for openings to get shots in; really me playing chess is like me going to a bar getting drunk and fighting a sober prize fighter - any major hits I get in will be say because theres a pool stick sitting there (lol)

It's not just you, I think this is the case for any Chess player. The more you play, the more experience you get, the more intuition you will have both in regards to your plans and your opponents plans. Through trial and error you will learn what tactics work and which don't -- what maneuvers require what preparation. Eventually you'll be anticipating these tactics/maneuvers and make strategic plans for them, well in advance. Then you will make contingency plans -- which are the meat and potatoes of Chess. Let your opponent defend against the most immediate problem while you are slowly maneuvering a completely unknown coupe de gras. Experience will also let you think like your opponent, and anticipate their tactics and maneuvers -- and eventually their gameplan.

Chess is a classic game because it is so easy to learn and so difficult to master. There are many different styles of play that win tournament games. It's crazy how many various openings there are. When I started to play I thought a great portion of them were silly. When I get destroyed, I think my own opening is very mundane and predictable. When you're starting out it's hard to seize the initiative and even harder to do something with it. Psychology is also a big part of the game -- no less than in Poker. Why isn't Chess more popular? I think it earned a social stigma, especially in recent pop culture. Chess players aren't as celebrated as athletes, hollywood hacks or those dumb mumblers on the radio. I guess it all comes down to the question of western values.

Edited by DerKommissar
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Interesting. So youre saying it just has to be played until it becomes a mental equivalent of 'muscle memory'?

I still question though why I can sit there and have a strategy for a game of hearts or whist ( as much as you can have one in whist.. ) or better yet come up with a strategy and contingency plans for any type of assault or defense in any CM enviroment and generally do respectably well even when my preferred battle in say BS is me with mostly crappy RedFor 80s vintage stuff and a few newer RedFor units vs the best the US has to offer.  Or CK2 I can make plans that take decades to come to fruition in game - yet when I look at a chess board I just cant seem to do it. im reacting, reacting.

I really think theres some sort of connection to immersion and being spoiled by newer games and graphics.  Its just too abstract for me or something. Oh well. I like whist better anyways. 

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Muscle memory, yeah. It's like mental sport. The more you play, the better you get. I'm the casual football player who just likes to kick the ball into the net with a few friends. Yet, people that play more, become significantly more profecient and it becomes a serious hobby for them. They watch OTHER people play chess and find it incredibly stimulating because they have a more intimate understanding of what's going on.  

I don't play chess when I'm home with my comp, either. I'd rather play CM or Graviteam or many many others in my collection. I picked up chess playing with my grandfather, who actually holds a Master ranking. When I'm away from home and got time to kill, I'll play it on a phone or something. Obviously it's most fun when playing with family or friends. It's got a few things my favourite computer games don't: portability and most people know how to play it.

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On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:55 AM, Sublime said:

Ive noticed with chess for whatever reason Im totally playing a reactionary game from the first move almost.

Chess intuitively teaches Murphy's Law. It doesn't matter what plans you make before you begin, any plans you make are invalidated by your opponent, (unless both of you are skilled enough to know and implement opening strategies) the real strength of a good chess player IMO is the ability to 'see and react' then quickly plan on the fly once the situation develops.

I usually try to think about five or six moves ahead, but that's only possible after the first half dozen opening moves (which I typically use one of three different openings). If you can consistently think three moves ahead, you'll do alright. You know the three moves you want to make, and then every time the opponent moves, you change your planned three moves if necessary. The moment you no longer have to reconsider your moves, then you know you have the advantage, because the opponent is dancing to your tune.

Then again, entire thousand page tomes are dedicated to chess strategy, so there's much more to say that what can be typed here.

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Several years ago, when IBM was developing the Watson chess demo, they determined that the top chess players had one trait beyond any one else.  That was rapid pattern recognition.  Their thinking process allowed them to store, recall, and act on emerging patterns in play.  So for every move, they can recognize the 15-20 possible next moves, and the XXXX next next moves, and so on.  Combining this with playing hundreds of games a week, they see, store, and recall every possible chess scenario.

In one set of tests, several top chess players were shown a board in the middle of a match.  They were asked to then lay out a fresh board as closely as possible to the one they were shown.  They were over 90% accurate.  The weird part is that in the 10% "incorrect" ones, they had layed out the board with the next move.

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Whenever I played against a new (to me) player, I would usually lose the first two or three games (I'm not actually a very good chess player), but after that I would win every single game, no matter how many games we played. Once I had witnessed a player's style, I would intuitively know how to beat him. There was one young man that I nicknamed "the Butcher". He could never pass up the opportunity to capture one of my pieces. Once I figured that out, I could maneuver him into whatever position on the board I wanted just by offering him a strategic sacrifice or two. I could usually checkmate him in half a dozen moves, sometimes as few as three. Fortunately he didn't seem to mind losing too much. I began to feel a little guilty about exploiting his weakness and explained to him the error of his ways, but he never changed.

Michael

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Lol emrys you one of those guys who spends their spare time playing cm and hustling people out of money outside of coffee cops with a chessboard and timer?

(No really theres some guys Ive seen who live off that - they put up a sign thats more or less a challenge for money and theyre off)

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I feel I've finally started to build an intuitive tactical library for CMBS. 

I've always played chess, on/off and while I'm. Not reactionary per se, I'm definitely limited in how far ahead AI think. 

I found CM was like that, each battle was a whole New OMG WTF HALP HALP FIRE EVERYTHING NEEOOWWWWW GO GO GO waitwherethe****iseveryone ARGH

Nowadays there's less OMG and more Dammit My Pixeltrupoen farted and the Bradley 3km away smelled them, drop the 152s hard, boys. 

I find the best thing, as intuited above, is to pick a force and stick with them. So, (because I'm ever so slightly retarded) , I choose UKR - hardest to play and utterly helpless if you have a crappy plan. US/RUS forces can still get you out of a scrape but UKR forces are DOOOMMMED if you don't plan properly.

So they're my training school, and a brutal one it is too. But I've built a little set if tactics for various events, with my actions triggered by that same note above - pattern recognition. 

Reading the enemy movements = survival.

In CMBS if you're alive you're winning. 

 

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On 11/13/2018 at 9:44 AM, kinophile said:

I feel I've finally started to build an intuitive tactical library for CMBS. 

I've always played chess, on/off and while I'm. Not reactionary per se, I'm definitely limited in how far ahead AI think. 

I found CM was like that, each battle was a whole New OMG WTF HALP HALP FIRE EVERYTHING NEEOOWWWWW GO GO GO waitwherethe****iseveryone ARGH

Nowadays there's less OMG and more Dammit My Pixeltrupoen farted and the Bradley 3km away smelled them, drop the 152s hard, boys. 

I find the best thing, as intuited above, is to pick a force and stick with them. So, (because I'm ever so slightly retarded) , I choose UKR - hardest to play and utterly helpless if you have a crappy plan. US/RUS forces can still get you out of a scrape but UKR forces are DOOOMMMED if you don't plan properly.

So they're my training school, and a brutal one it is too. But I've built a little set if tactics for various events, with my actions triggered by that same note above - pattern recognition. 

Reading the enemy movements = survival.

In CMBS if you're alive you're winning. 

 

I agree. If you never break out of the learning - playing blufor only - loop then you.ll be doomed when you play humans

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On 11/9/2018 at 9:55 PM, Sublime said:

I know how to play chess amd have since I was 8 or 9. Yet Ive noticed -(though admittedly last time I sat down and played chess with someone it was in the type of place you kinda have to make sure youre aware of whats going on around you in real life - yet this didnt affect me with cards) - Ive noticed with chess for whatever reason Im totally playing a reactionary game from the first move almost. Even worse I cant seem to gin up in my head any type of coherent plans in chess besides looking for openings to get shots in; really me playing chess is like me going to a bar getting drunk and fighting a sober prize fighter - any major hits I get in will be say because theres a pool stick sitting there (lol)

I wonder if because my age (33) if my generation and those after are starting to get spoiled visually etc to where if I see some more life like rendition my imagination can wrap around it but in the black and white chess board its too abstract?

Some of it seems to be natural aging, the loss of our youthful 'plasticity' of intellect and (if we're lucky) its replacement with a 'crystalline' pattern, which really comes down to experience giving you a knack for knowing what works and what's a waste of time and (flagging) energy.

Great article here about a 40 year old guy learning to play chess at the same time as his young daughter, and trying not to get his arse kicked every time.... 

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6 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Some of it seems to be natural aging, the loss of our youthful 'plasticity' of intellect and (if we're lucky) its replacement with a 'crystalline' pattern, which really comes down to experience giving you a knack for knowing what works and what's a waste of time and (flagging) energy.

Great article here about a 40 year old guy learning to play chess at the same time as his young daughter, and trying not to get his arse kicked every time.... 

Thx for that. What interests me is that as I age .. Hmm how do I phrase this.. Despite having a lot of time outside playing in my youth etc. I did grow up in the mid 80s and 90s so there were video games and its like they almost spoiled my imagination.  I can clearly think out strategy in CMx2 or Crusader Kings 2 or whatever but it just seems chess is a little to abstract for me.

 

Lil postscript - from the article - " we definitely get worse at being novices as we age"

All too sadly this seems to be true. I do find some things fascinating like how theres clear generational divides and their aptitudes with things.

For example I DID NOT grow up with a cellphone or pager. At best those old nokias were around when I was 17 or 18.  Yet I effortlessly can use any smartphone or anyones smartphone and routinely help my boss with what are astoundingly simple and intuitive (to me !!) functions of a smartphone. He was born in 1939. HOWEVER often when it comes to mechanical repair or manual stuff in our work Ill do astoundingly inept, lack of commonsense generally (to HIM !!!) dumbassed things.

Its really a fascinating subject on the whole to me - like at what age does our brain 'set' and things become newfangled youngster stuff to us?  Further its different in every category - Im completely a dinosaur musically. A few notable exceptions aside the 90s was the last musical highpoint era IMO but its different with everyone as is everything.

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1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Lil postscript - from the article - " we definitely get worse at being novices as we age"

 All too sadly this seems to be true.

Yeah. Back when I was starting college, and all the years before that and for a couple of decades after, I was greedy to learn new stuff and quite facile in doing so. Nowadays, if I find myself having to learn something new and complicated, like a new OS, I groan and drag my feet and whine about "why couldn't they just keep using the stuff I already know?"

:unsure:

Michael

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7 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Nowadays, if I find myself having to learn something new and complicated, like a new OS, I groan and drag my feet and whine about "why couldn't they just keep using the stuff I already know?"

:unsure:

Michael

+1   I still don't use my new and expensive Win 10 machine and keep on with old Win 7 machine.   My rationale is that the Win 7 machine does everything I need to, so why have to learn a new OS - esp one that seems primarily designed to market to customers something they don't want and suck out one's personal info to sell to other marketers.  :angry:

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8 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Yeah. Back when I was starting college, and all the years before that and for a couple of decades after, I was greedy to learn new stuff and quite facile in doing so. Nowadays, if I find myself having to learn something new and complicated, like a new OS, I groan and drag my feet and whine about "why couldn't they just keep using the stuff I already know?"

:unsure:

Michael

You really do need to give up your abacus.  

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