RQ-11B Raven proves useless in Donbas.

[Ivanov]

"The Air Force command of Ukraine's armed forces acknowledged to Reuters that the Ravens supplied by the United States had a fundamental drawback: Russia and the separatist forces it supports can intercept and jam their video feeds and data".

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-drones-exclusive-idUSKBN14A26D

Time to introduce electronic warfare in CMBS?

[akd]

EW is in CMBS, but effects on UAVs might need tweaking.  However, when it is a case of effects only on a particular UAV or class of UAVs and which effectively eliminate the asset, the appropriate in-game application of EW effects is for the scenario designer to not include the asset in the scenario.

Edited December 22, 2016 by akd

[John Kettler]

Ivanov,

Now, that's embarrassing. Granted, it's not quite as bad as bringing a knife to a gunfight, but it certainly trends that way. It would appear, judging the intel types and the drone types in the US Army didn't talk to each other (or intel was ignored) before this UAV military aid was ordered. Nor, it appears, did they talk later, either. We've known from the earliest days that Russian main force units were involved, and reports of advanced Russian EW equipment and use in Ukraine were readily available in open source well over a year ago, as seen in this attention-getting DefenseNews  piece "Electronic Warfare: What US Army Can Learn from Ukraine" by Joe Gould, April 2, 2015. Indeed, in 2008, the Russians were self-reporting jamming Georgian UAS. Page 8, Footnote 48 of

Moscow's emerging electronic warfare capabilities:

A dangerous jammer on U.S./NATO-Russian relations?

by Anya Loukianova
http://posse.gatech.edu/sites/default/files/pubfiles/Loukianova-Posse_Russian EW_final.pdf

48

Anton Valagin, “Chto napugalo amerikanskii esminets,”

Rossiiskaya Gazeta

, April 30, 2014,

www.rg.ru/2014/04/30/reb

-site.html.

Am therefore of the firm opinion that this was a critical failure on the US end, one which has caused injuries and fatalities to the UA, but which has also damaged our reputation with Ukraine and provided Russian propaganda fooder. Would further observe this has more than a few similarities to the initial US military aid to Ukraine. We did not send the good stuff, and anyone with half a brain should've known the ultra permissive EW environment over Iraq and Afghanistan in no way obtained over Ukraine.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Splinty]

My understanding is that the Ukrainian Army didn't posses the necessary digital radios used to produce a secure link. The US does, but for some reason the UA did not buy those radios, so they ended up with an analog datalink which was easy for Russian forces to jam.

 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

One of the interesting things about Russia is it's desire to expose its fullest capabilities in places where someone with the right eyes or ears could learn a lot.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

I mean, to be clear, I don't know of any collection efforts, nor would I be able to comment on them if I did, but I done read my Cold War history, and what Russia is doing now is providing the sort of collection targets I know would have made certain people very excited.  

[Haiduk]

13 hours ago, Splinty said:

My understanding is that the Ukrainian Army didn't posses the necessary digital radios used to produce a secure link. The US does, but for some reason the UA did not buy those radios, so they ended up with an analog datalink which was easy for Russian forces to jam.

 

We use digital radios - own "Telecard" manufacturer, US Harris and Motorola. But RQ-11B were with analogue control channel. Even our own new UAV already have digital one...

[Marwek77 aka Red Reporter]

What if the answer is much simplier. UA bought analog UAV's, now they will need better ones and will pay this time for digital UAV's... business must go on

[Haiduk]

3 hours ago, Marwek77 aka Red Reporter said:

What if the answer is much simplier. UA bought analog UAV's, now they will need better ones and will pay this time for digital UAV's... business must go on

We din't pay for its. This is USA aid program. 12 millions $ of US taxpayers can be spent more effectively...  

[Battlefront.com]

Some say the analog ones were given to Ukraine because the US is reluctant to let anybody else have the digital ones.  There's also the cost factor.  However, now that it's been proven that simple coal miners and unemployed teachers can hack and disrupt the analog type I hope an alternative is worked out.  Like giving Ukraine even less money than the Ravens and getting much better local built ones.  Not as good for US defense contractors, but better for Ukraine to combat the unemployed taxicab drivers they face.

Steve

[Marwek77 aka Red Reporter]

Dear Haiduk, SOMEBODY has paid your toys, US Taxpayers or UA ones... And you want to tell me, that they gave you all these toys because of pure love? You will pay full price sooner or later, nothing is for free, agree or not...

[kraze]

Russia thus far has paid back US less than 1% of a truly massive land-lease and act like dicks in relation to guys who saved them during WW2 - so I wouldn't worry about that

[Marwek77 aka Red Reporter]

...act like dicks in relation to guys who saved them during WWII?

First of all there will be maybe no WWII without possible support of Mr. George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, who was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany. While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.

So business like usual...

Under the Lend-Lease Act of 1941, the United States sent billions of dollars of war materiel to its allies while postponing the question of payment until after the war. In the euphoria of victory, the United States forgave all except materiel which would be useful to the postwar civilian economy (trucks, for example). The Canadian equivalent of Lead-Lease was Mutual Aid, which, so far as I know, did not require the recipient to return or pay for the materiel in question when the war ended.

There was at least one documentary on History Channel where they discovered, that several shipments have been invoiced at least 3 times. Not to mention that even all sinked ships with lost material have been counted like delivered and were counted in total amount at the end...

But my opinion is that UA will pay it, with money or something else, its not pure love...

Edited December 25, 2016 by Marwek77 aka Red Reporter

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Hey everyone, I'm going to be away from the forums for a bit, I strained my ocular nerve with the sheer violence I eyerolled at the last post and it's difficult to see the screen now.  

[sburke]

13 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Hey everyone, I'm going to be away from the forums for a bit, I strained my ocular nerve with the sheer violence I eyerolled at the last post and it's difficult to see the screen now.  

?

[c3k]

^^^ +1

[VladimirTarasov]

5 hours ago, kraze said:

Russia thus far has paid back US less than 1% of a truly massive land-lease and act like dicks in relation to guys who saved them during WW2 - so I wouldn't worry about that

Yeah no one saved us in world war 2, however we did get help and it's appreciated. 

[Kinophile]

Zero to do with this thread about a local skirmish in some crappy rural forest in the middle of nowhere,  Ukraine. 

This could actually be an interesting CMBS map,  fighting along a ridge.  Most BS maps are flat-ish (as it is realistically). 

[Rinaldi]

6 hours ago, Marwek77 aka Red Reporter said:

...act like dicks in relation to guys who saved them during WWII?

First of all there will be maybe no WWII without possible support of Mr. George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, who was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany. While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.

 

??????

 

The ability of some of you people to totally and utterly derail a thread with hamfisted BS like this continues to amaze me.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Rinaldi

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

28 minutes ago, kinophile said:

Zero to do with this thread about a local skirmish in some crappy rural forest in the middle of nowhere,  Ukraine. 

This could actually be an interesting CMBS map,  fighting along a ridge.  Most BS maps are flat-ish (as it is realistically). 

Firstly as to being totally on topic:

There really needs to be a step back and a better understanding of just what the Raven was designed to do. It's a short duration, Company level tool designed to give the commander the ability to check out near objectives prior to moving in.  In terms of being able to operate in a high EW environment, a lot will depend on how it's being used, and where even on an encrypted digital link.  

They're being given to the Ukrainians because on a scale of 1-10 in terms of how "sensitive" the contents are, ranks somewhere around a -4, enough disappeared in Iraq, or have gone to other less reputable allies.  If this was closer to what Russia claims the fighting in the Ukraine is, the Raven would be an excellent tool.  However with EW support, it's effectiveness obviously will suffer.   

Flagrantly off topic:

Arguing who "saved" who, or really "won" World War Two is dumb.  If the Western Allies just never showed up or sent lend lease, the war would look differently enough to make it impossible to really call what would have happened.  If the Soviet Union collapsed, there's a wide variety of outcomes that we could totally make up with equal "reality"*

In speaking about the Soviet Union, saying the west "helped" is selling that support short by a large margin.  To put it in broad terms, while the military weapons end of the Soviet War effort was majority production Soviet equipment with a not-insignificant US/UK pile of kit, but in terms of petroleum products, locomotives and rolling stock, trucks, food, steel, etc, etc, it is really hard to imagine the USSR in Berlin by 1945.  

Would it have been enough for a German victory? That's uncertain.  Maybe even doubtful given the vast depths of Russia, and the limitations of the German war machine to span those lengths.  The fanatical Soviet defense also seems to indicate a force that was not going to break anytime soon.  

However looking at the millions of dead Soviets, it's hard to imagine what a harder road would have done to the Soviet people, or even if the outcome would have been "victory" as much as survival.  

*My favorite alternate history is actually "Festung Europa: The Anglo-American-Nazi War" which supposes Stalin kicks over dead after the Nazis win at Stalingrad (If I remember right).  The Allies are unable to return to Europe as the Nazis are all now concentrated on the Western front, so after winning in North Africa, they turn to defeating the Japanese.  Then there's a longish semi-cold war (both parties agree to a bombing holiday, Naval combat continues basically), before the Allies return to Europe in the late 40's early 50's for a nearly apocalyptic war with nukes, jet fighters and the like flying left and right.

[Kinophile]

woops - my mistake, got confused with the push/shove thread!

[John Kettler]

On 12/25/2016 at 5:12 AM, kraze said:

Russia thus far has paid back US less than 1% of a truly massive land-lease and act like dicks in relation to guys who saved them during WW2

kraze,

You are flat out and unambiguously wrong, for first the Soviet Union, then its successor the Russian Federation have repaid the Lend-Lease debt in full. Quora meticulously details these facts in an excellent article which offers insights not only on repayment (including a wartime delivery of 5.5 tons of gold), but on valuable reverse Lend-Lease in the form of vital chromium and manganese.

https://www.quora.com/Has-Russia-paid-off-the-USSRs-Lend-Lease-debt

Rinaldi,

You need to do some reading, methinks. Antony Sutton, a professor of economics and later, research fellow at the Hoover Institute of War, Revolution and Peace,Stanford University, wrote two seminal books which I commend to your attention. They are: the top rated on Amazon Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler and National Suicide: Military Aid to the Soviet Union. Sutton shows in irrefutable terms that Brown Brothers, Harriman and Prescott Bush were directly linked to both the rise of Hitler and the Nazis and the rise of the Soviet Union. Would further note Prescott Bush, Bush Senior's grandfather, was indicted under the Trading with the Enemy Act and had to plead nolo contendere. In light of these facts, I believe a strong case exists for an apology to Marwek77 aka Red Reporter. And since you like headgear, I leave it to your confreres to decide whether or not you rate one of these.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited December 27, 2016 by John Kettler

[Rinaldi]

John I can search for books on Amazon that tell me in irrefutable terms that the Nazca lines are complex invasion signals to ET lifeforms. I can also, should my dander ever rise for such a taste, search up Vampire Gore Porn fan fictions on Amazon - that's the glory and pants-on-head silliness of Amazon allowing you to self-publish with relative ease.

I won't even begin to address this trite in depth, but suffice to say an indictment for a single private citizen in 1942 is far from what I call irrefutable, concrete evidence of a grand banking conspiracy that somehow gave rise to ideologies totally at odds with one another. Ideologies whose genesis are two decades apart. Needless to say that banks collaborating with the German government prior to the US's entry into WWII is also quite well documented - you're not giving anyone the vapors by regurgitating 40 year old historiography. Unless of course the men like Henry Ford who dabbed their fingers in the NDSAP were telepaths who could immediately divine German intent I'm not entirely sure why you're tossing hay and straw in my face. Tilt at other windmills John, with all due respect.

While we're on the subject of irrefutable evidence and claims; consider this my written confession: It was I who killed Vince Foster. I did it in the Kitchen with the Candlestick. 

I won't presume your profession, if you even have one, but in my line of work stringboard theories meets no burden of proof I've ever seen. If only it was that easy I'm sure I would be a top 30 under 30.

On 12/25/2016 at 1:21 PM, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Firstly as to being totally on topic:

There really needs to be a step back and a better understanding of just what the Raven was designed to do. It's a short duration, Company level tool designed to give the commander the ability to check out near objectives prior to moving in.  In terms of being able to operate in a high EW environment, a lot will depend on how it's being used, and where even on an encrypted digital link.  

They're being given to the Ukrainians because on a scale of 1-10 in terms of how "sensitive" the contents are, ranks somewhere around a -4, enough disappeared in Iraq, or have gone to other less reputable allies.  If this was closer to what Russia claims the fighting in the Ukraine is, the Raven would be an excellent tool.  However with EW support, it's effectiveness obviously will suffer.   

 

Yes exactly. While it its concerning that the analog models are easily compromised its not nearly the coup de main the DPR chest-beating would like it to be.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Rinaldi

[Marwek77 aka Red Reporter]

Thank you Mr. John Kettler!

[JUAN DEAG]

 

I rate the direction this thread has gone: 3 out of 5 okay signs. On another note, what the actual f*ck?