Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

[Haiduk]

15 hours ago, Ashez said:

The latest Gallup poll: http://www.gallup.com/poll/203819/nato-members-eastern-europe-protection.aspx?g_source=World&g_medium=newsfeed&g_campaign=tiles

Eastern European Countries' Views of NATO in 2016

Do you associate NATO with protection of your country, as a threat to your country or do you see it as neither protection nor a threat?

Ukraine	29	35	26

Comment:

Not any new information in that. Most of that 30-35 % of population are people older 40-50 years, which have old stamps of Soviet/Russian propaganda. Also about 1,65 millions of Donbas inhabitants since 2014 moved on Ukraine-controlled territory and can influence on polling results - many of them continue to consider itself as "Soviet people", but just don't want to go in distant areas of Russia, where they often are sending Russian authorities. Reducing of NATO supporters and their moving in "neither" cathegory is a result of uncapabilty of NATO and EU to respond tough on Russian threat, so this people want either neutral status or militarization of Ukraine, in order to we can respond themeselve on any agreession like Israel or Switzerland. 

Last polling of Kyiv International sociology institute in May 2016 shows next results on question "what variant of security wold be best for Ukraine?"

Blue line - membership in NATO, red line - military alliance with Russia and CIS countries, yellow line - neutral status, green line - don't know. Color circles - ratio betwen support of "NATO membership" (blue) and "neutral" (yellow) by years and regions. From above to bottom - West, Center, South, East, Donbas (Ukraine-controlled part)

In case of referendum in May 2016 78 % of participants would vote for "NATO membership". Most of people, who consider NATO as threat is a so called "swamp" - they just will not go on referendum without administartive force.

 

[Ashez]

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Not any new information in that

Sure thing. But majority of thread participants seem to be unaware of this fact. Time to educate them that Ukrainian citizen with different view is not necessarily a 'pro russian traitor' and there are many millions of them.

 

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Last polling of Kyiv International sociology institute in May 2016

May 2016? That poll is already old. NATO support is sliding down again and I agree with Gallup people in Ukraine are already tired. I guess they started to realize that war won't be over until Washington allows it. And after all those warlike vows from politicians noone wants to tell people Crimea is lost and not coming back in foreseeable future. 

 

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Most of that 30-35 % of population are people older 40-50 years

They are country citizens, they can still vote. They are not 'potato beetles' (like you call separatists) you can't just shut them down.

 

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

which have old stamps of Soviet/Russian propaganda

Sure now when they are free they must watch Poroshenko's own TV channel :-)

Edited February 19, 2017 by Ashez

[Holien]

What bollocks...

". I guess they started to realize that war won't be over until Washington allows it"

Please stop trolling this thread.

Russia is the sole cause of this war and a bully picking on their neighbours. 

[Lethaface]

4 hours ago, Ashez said:

May 2016? That poll is already old. NATO support is sliding down again and I agree with Gallup people in Ukraine are already tired. I guess they started to realize that war won't be over until Washington allows it. And after all those warlike vows from politicians noone wants to tell people Crimea is lost and not coming back in foreseeable future. 

You can't denounce a poll (whatever it's worth) by stating that it is old and the spectrum has changed, without quoting a similar poll showing the results your claiming. PS you misquoted the city where the decisions are being made regarding the war in Ukraine. While Washington has held the strings on most wars since WWII, and probably will do for another 100 years, it is Moscow that is controlling the war in Donbass as it was Moscow that annexed the Krim, without any support from Washington. Or do you claim Washington annexed Crimea?

[Ashez]

18 hours ago, Holien said:

What bollocks...

". I guess they started to realize that war won't be over until Washington allows it"

Please stop trolling this thread.

Russia is the sole cause of this war and a bully picking on their neighbours. 

 

So. Have you decided to offend me because I breached your alleged 'morality advantage'? Because constant meddling in sovereign countries' internal issues is NOT what USA usually does? Or because your own government fuels Saudi genocide in Yemen while Fallon and Johnson speak out their anti- russian catchphrases?

Is this forum 'NATO pov only' and everyone who questions its goals is a troll? 

BTW. War in Ukraine cannot be decided by military action, and there will be no full-scale russian offensive. Sorry to disappoint you transatlantic military fans.

Anyone wants to bet?

 

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Ashez

[sburke]

10 minutes ago, Ashez said:

Because constant meddling in sovereign countries' internal issues is NOT what Russia usually does?

Fixed that for you.  You're welcome

Edited February 20, 2017 by sburke

[Ashez]

17 hours ago, Lethaface said:

You can't denounce a poll (whatever it's worth) by stating that it is old and the spectrum has changed, without quoting a similar poll showing the results your claiming. PS you misquoted the city where the decisions are being made regarding the war in Ukraine. While Washington has held the strings on most wars since WWII, and probably will do for another 100 years, it is Moscow that is controlling the war in Donbass as it was Moscow that annexed the Krim, without any support from Washington. Or do you claim Washington annexed Crimea?

 

I quoted latest Gallup poll, you must have overlooked it, and it shows that NATO support in Ukraine is going down again.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/203819/nato-members-eastern-europe-protection.aspx?g_source=World&g_medium=newsfeed&g_campaign=tiles

Of course Russia annexed Crimea (exactly as NATO took Kosovo) but Russian action (though probably pre-planned) was reactive in nature.

And to be honest: if NATO soldier would ever step his foot on Crimea, the Russian leader who allowed it would be portrayed as the worst ever in Russia's long history.

Crimea is just too important. 

 

 

[sburke]

exactly as NATO took Kosovo... errrr what?  Russia occupied and annexed Crimea as part of Russia.  What NATO country is Kosovo a part of again?  I looked at a map and it isn't clear.  Umm Austria?  Greece maybe.

 

Troll

[Ashez]

8 minutes ago, sburke said:

Fixed that for you.  You're welcome

Oh you overlooked one detail. Russia does it when large Russian ethnic population is involved, in russian - speaking countries and having a long standing economical or political ties with Russia. USA does it all the time regardless of the place on earth.

[Ashez]

30 minutes ago, sburke said:

exactly as NATO took Kosovo... errrr what?  Russia occupied and annexed Crimea as part of Russia.  What NATO country is Kosovo a part of again?  I looked at a map and it isn't clear.  Umm Austria?  Greece maybe.

 

Troll

if you are not aware that NATO stole a piece of historical Serbian heartland to create Albanian enclave there (and NATO base of course), you have some serious modern history...deficiencies. 

[Baneman]

1 minute ago, Ashez said:

if you are not aware that NATO stole a piece of historical Serbian heartland to create Albanian enclave there (and NATO base of course), you have some serious modern history...deficiencies. 

So ethnic Albanians became the majority in Kosovo and wanted independence = BAD

Ethnic Russians in Donbas Ukraine wanted independence from Kiev = GOOD

I'm confused - somehow there's a difference here, but I can't see it...

[Ashez]

12 minutes ago, Baneman said:

So ethnic Albanians became the majority in Kosovo and wanted independence = BAD

Ethnic Russians in Donbas Ukraine wanted independence from Kiev = GOOD

I'm confused - somehow there's a difference here, but I can't see it...

I just show NATO double standards.

Kosovo (Albanian majority) independence = GOOD. Crimea (Russian majority) = BAD

To be honest every land grab is bad, but borders are not set in stone, never were and never will be.

Just look at Guantanamo. It has NOTHING in common with a fair deal, lease 'agreement' was forced on Cuba by USA. This is just occupation.

You can't just accuse others of what you have been doing yourself since forever.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Ashez

[sburke]

19 minutes ago, Ashez said:

I just show Russian double standards.

Kosovo (Albanian majority) independence with international involvement = BAD. Crimea solo Russian occupation which it initially denied then had the vote under gun point= Good

To be honest every land grab is bad, but borders are not set in stone if they conflict with Russian interests.  Hey Latvia, we're looking at you.

Fixed - Geez I am gonna have to charge you for services if you keep making me do corrections.

[John Kettler]

Ashez,

"Why the US Controls Guantanamo Bay," from TIME magazine in 2015, is a good read and worth your time. While the lease, which is legally rock solid, is set in stone unless deliberately abrogated, the reality is that if the US leaves, 3000 jobs, with a payroll over $7,000,000 a year, and the cumulative financial effect is many times that, of course, cease flowing into a Cuban economy no longer being massively propped up by Russia, as it was in the Cold War. In other words, it would be a substantial hit, certainly on that part of Cuba, Oriente, which is in poor fiscal shape.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by John Kettler

[Ashez]

4 hours ago, sburke said:

Crimea solo Russian occupation which it initially denied then had the vote under gun point= Good

Sure....Russian majority had to be pointed with guns to vote for joining Russia:-)

Especially concerning the average salary gap...*sigh*

 

[Ashez]

48 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

While the lease, which is legally rock solid

Sure, as many post colonial laws, where strong enforced their will upon the weak.  $7,000,000 a year is much? Are you kidding me? Lease of that part of the land should be worth 100 times that amount. I guess Iraq should be happy about the big fortified US compound in the middle of Baghdad due to how it stimulates their economy too? Not only rock solid legally but even established in accordance with their constitution. Too bad you wrote it.

Back to Guantanamo:

Platt Amendment was nothing but an instrument designed to control, occupy and exploit Cuba. Legally rock solid - by the standards you set.

John, it is pointless to go case by case throughout all the history. All I wanted to show USA is not even a tiny bit above Russia on morality ladder despite what you all claim. Even if you forget all other things, just remember 'Iraqi Freedom". 

The whole anger about Russia comes from the fact they did what US plannists did not expect. All US government and media propaganda and often hysteria is on borderline with sheer absurd. Don't be like Jen Psaki.

BTW: Your new president would agree.

O’Reilly told Trump that Putin is a killer. Trump’s reply: ‘You think our country is so innocent?’ 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/02/04/oreilly-told-trump-that-putin-is-a-killer-trumps-reply-you-think-our-countrys-so-innocent/?utm_term=.815b16c4396e

Edited February 20, 2017 by Ashez

[Holien]

Please stop trolling this thread.....

The discussion is about the actions of Russia in Ukraine and military focused. Your continued trolling is not helping the thread...

[Lethaface]

1 hour ago, Ashez said:

Sure, as many post colonial laws, where strong enforced their will upon the weak.  $7,000,000 a year is much? Are you kidding me? Lease of that part of the land should be worth 100 times that amount. I guess Iraq should be happy about the big fortified US compound in the middle of Baghdad due to how it stimulates their economy too? Not only rock solid legally but even established in accordance with their constitution. Too bad you wrote it.

Well, I for one never said the USA is holy nor that Iraqi Freedom was a good thing. It wasn't. But we were talking about Ukraine in this forum and on this thread. Basically you agreed it was an ordinary land-grab by Russia. So there we have it 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Lethaface

[John Kettler]

Ashez,

You didn't understand what I wrote. Hold onto your hat. The lease is for under $4000.00/yr. or $104,300 in 2017 money. That was first established in 1903 when Guantanamo was practically in the middle of nowhere and land was dirt cheap. Since we're still paying the original sum, it's clear there was no inflation escalator clause.The $7,000,000.00 was what the total US payroll in 2015 for the Cuban workers at Guantanamo. The actual economic value of those wages is many times that because of all the things people do with that money. For the record, my country is far from blameless, and I can cite you a list of things of bad things it's done. But here's what someone who fought those late in the 1800s and early 1900s wars famously and blisteringly stated. War Is a Racket, by two-time Medal of Honor awardee, Marine Major General Smedley Butler. What was true then is, sadly, still true, just somewhat different in form. 

The above said, US actions in no way nullify or otherwise diminish Russia's actions in seizing the Crimea and occupying, through a variety of means, the Donbas--not to mention continuing to wage war there while denying it's doing so. The last time Russia liberated nations was from the Nazis during the GPW, but then it stayed--for decades! Suggest you take this issue you have about US actions to the General Discussion Forum and have a historical discourse there on the US's dismaying to many of us track record. The CMBS Forum simply isn't the place for that.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by John Kettler

[Kinophile]

On 10/02/2017 at 11:49 AM, IMHO said:

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by kinophile

[Kinophile]

I dunno why but that last post just would not delete the quote box....

Putler's Law strikes again. Whataboutism leads the charge on its tired old nag,  Propaganda. 

Nothing to do with this thread, just classic Russian member obfuscation &  distraction when anything remotely non-pro-russian is raised. 

Pretty dull by now. 

The Avdiivka tension seems to have subsided. No further UKR pushes along the front. 

[AlexUK]

5 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Ashez,

You didn't understand what I wrote. Hold onto your hat. The lease is for under $4000.00/yr. or $104,300 in 2017 money. That was first established in 1903 when Guantanamo was practically in the middle of nowhere and land was dirt cheap. Since we're still paying the original sum, it's clear there was no inflation escalator clause.The $7,000,000.00 was what the total US payroll in 2015 for the Cuban workers at Guantanamo. The actual economic value of those wages is many times that because of all the things people do with that money. For the record, my country is far from blameless, and I can cite you a list of things of bad things it's done. But here's what someone who fought those late in the 1800s and early 1900s wars famously and blisteringly stated. War Is a Racket, by two-time Medal of Honor awardee, Marine Major General Smedley Butler. What was true then is, sadly, still true, just somewhat different in form. 

The above said, US actions in no way nullify or otherwise diminish Russia's actions in seizing the Crimea and occupying, through a variety of means, the Donbas--not to mention continuing to wage war there while denying it's doing so. The last time Russia liberated nations was from the Nazis during the GPW, but then it stayed--for decades! Suggest you take this issue you have about US actions to the General Discussion Forum and have a historical discourse there on the US's dismaying to many of us track record. The CMBS Forum simply isn't the place for that.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Hey John - I have started reading the 'war is a racket' link - it's a really great read - thanks!

[HerrTom]

It's good to hear that violence is subsiding. Thank you Kino for bringing this to our attention. It's been a very interesting thread so far especially thanks to Haiduk's help. In the end what was gained, out of curiosity? A couple acres of land with some trenches in them?

As a side note, I can definitely see the appeal of whataboutism, and can even see its validity. That is, except in formal discussion and debate where we try to deal more in absolutes (especially with formal logic's deep connection to maths!) where it is invalid. Informally, the argument fundamental to whataboutism is "why do you judge me to standards you don't hold yourself?" or even standards no one else achieves. It's attractive because it's hard to argue against and the comparison may even be quite apt. But formally, the fact that the US abducted its citizens for mind control experiments doesn't really have a bearing on mafia murders in the Donbas beyond the legal argument of precedent, which isn't the point here either!

That said, one would hope we try to stay closer to formal logic here, since there is less room for creative interpretation (alternate facts?) and flared tempers.

Sorry, I got a little carried away on the side note! I should stick to DARs...

[Battlefront.com]

On 2/18/2017 at 6:57 PM, Ashez said:

So again - situation in Ukraine differs from 'US reality' and certainly it is far from black and white propaganda style.

Says the man who repeatedly SPAM's threads with Russian propaganda that is divorced from reality.

Please stop your trolling.  We've been down this road many times before and the result never changes.

Steve

 

[John Kettler]

AlexUK,

You are most welcome. I consider that book essential reading for every adult in this country and, indeed, the West. What Butler decries is a fundamental dynamic which people need to understand and address if the cycle of perpetual enrichment of the few through devastating wars waged these days without declaration and for oft spun, misrepresented or outright lied about reasons, is ever to be broken. And neither the US nor the West has a monopoly on the practices Butler describes, for much the same happens in other parts of the world. When something major happens, always ask cui bono, loosely translated Latin for "who benefits?" If you PM me, I'll be happy to send you a link to a rock solid academic book whose editor, a professor, was given direct access to the files of the CFR. I feel safe in asserting that once you read a handful of pages, you'll never again view the US in WW II the same way. Shook me to my core. Perpetual war for perpetual profits!

Regards,

John Kettler