Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, DMS said:

Why industrial city of Donetsk, that was built by Soviet people

Donetsk, as industrial and coalmining city was found by John Hughes, Welsh businessman and some Belgian capitalists at the end of 19th century. And named in that time Yuzovka in his honor. Bolsheviks in 1919 expelled all foreign managers and qualified workers and have nationalized facrtories. So, almost all "built by Soviet people" main factories are old Belgian and Brittish, only renamed and slightly modernized in 20-30th years of 20th century. Sometime to these days on these factories remained properly working 100-years (!!!) Belgian machine-tools. By your logic govts of Belgium and UK also have to claim as minimum money compensation for lost property.

 

1 hour ago, DMS said:

"In Ukraine all people must speak Ukrainian".

Not speak, but understand. Even in Soviet times Ukrainan language was studying in schools from 2nd class. In 2013 95 % of Ukrainian citizens could understand Ukrainain and about 75 % could free speak on it. Looks like all problem only in some categories of population just hate all Ukrainian and consider all Ukraine is origin part of Great Russia. For this category I can offer only one - suitcase, station, Russia. Enough these hopes about sometime all will return back and again will be sausage for 2.20 and vodka for 3.62. 

In Russia recently was pased the same law - all migrants to receive Russian citizenship must speak on Russian. So, why in Russian case this is "integration of migrants in great Russian culture" and in case of Ukraine "discrimination, pressure and assimilation of "Russian-speaking" population" ?

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Haiduk

[Machor]

2 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

It did not have sufficient information that clearly marked and clearly led Russian forces were operating in South Ossetia before August 8.

 

56 minutes ago, IMHO said:

Let's discuss other impartial sources.

A tidbit:

"Moscow Claims Media War Win"

https://web.archive.org/web/20120523210654/http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/moscow-claims-media-war-win/372391.html

"Tbilisi has also helped muddy the waters about the outbreak of the war. Shortly after Georgian troops entered South Ossetia, officials said the use of force was to "restore constitutional order" in the separatist region. 

But they later said Russian forces had moved into South Ossetia first, on Aug. 7, and that Georgia had no choice but to send troops to head off an invasion. 

Paradoxically, these Georgian claims have been bolstered by two reports in state-controlled Russian media. 

On Aug. 7, state-owned Rossia television showed Sergei Bagapsh, the leader of Abkhazia, the other separatist province within Georgia, speaking at a meeting of the Abkhaz National Security Council. According to the report, which is still on the station's web site, he said: "I have spoken to the president of South Ossetia. It has more or less stabilized now. A battalion from the North Caucasus District has entered the area." 

In September, a Russian officer who fought in South Ossetia was quoted in an interview as saying his regiment was dispatched from the Russian-Georgian border to Tskhinvali on the evening of Aug. 7 and was fighting Georgian forces the following morning. 

The interview was published by Krasnaya Zvezda, the Defense Ministry's official newspaper. The paper published another article 10 days later, in which the officer, Captain Denis Sidristy, said the correct date for the advance to Tskhinvali had been Aug. 8."

[DMS]

Just now, Haiduk said:

Donetsk, as industrial and coalmining city was found by John Hughes

Yes, sure, settlement Yusovka is the same to 1,5-million Donetsk aglomeration.

Just now, Haiduk said:

So, almost all "built by Soviet people" main factories are old Belgian and Brittish, only renamed and slightly modernized in 20-30th years of 20th century.

Are you serious?!

Just now, Haiduk said:

In Russia recently was pased the same law - all migrants to receive Russian citizenship must speak on Russian. So, why in Russian case this is "integration of migrants in great Russian culture" and in case of Ukraine "discrimination and pressure "Russian-speaking" population" ?

Your words are the best illustration to the problem. You equated people who was born there, who live there, who bult that city to foreign migrants.

[Haiduk]

6 minutes ago, DMS said:

Yes, sure, settlement Yusovka is the same to 1,5-million Donetsk aglomeration.

Are you serious?!

Your words are the best illustration to the problem. You equated people who was born there, who live there, who bult that city to foreign migrants.

Юз в 1869 году покупает землю у русского князя Кочубея в Екатеринославской губернии на берегу реки Кальмиус и начинает строительство металлургического завода с рабочим поселком в районе села Александровка. Для разработки угля он основывает «Новороссийское общество каменноугольного, железного и рельсового производств». Первый чугун начал выплавляться в 1872 году. Завод работает по полному металлургическому циклу, здесь впервые в России запускается 8 коксовых печей, осваивается горячее дутьё. Основанный Юзом комбинат становится одним из индустриальных центров России, позже СССР, а с 1991 года и Украины.

He formed the 'New Russia Company Ltd.' to raise capital, and in the summer of 1870, at the age of 55, he moved to the Russian Empire. He sailed with eight ships, with not only all the equipment necessary to establish a metal works, but also much of the skilled labour; a group of about a hundred ironworkers and miners mostly from South Wales.^[2]

He immediately started to build metal works close to the river Kalmius, at a site near the village of Alexandrovka. The state-of-the-art works had eight blast furnaces and was capable of a full production cycle, with the first pig iron cast in 1872. During the 1870s, collieries and iron ore mines were sunk, and brickworks and other facilities were established to make the isolated works a self-sufficient industrial complex. He further built a railway-line-producing factory. All of Hughes' facilities were held under the 'Novorussian society for coal, iron and rails production.'

The Hughes factory gave its name to the settlement which grew in its shadow, and the town of Hughesovka (Yuzovka) grew rapidly. Hughes personally provided a hospital, schools, bath houses, tea rooms, a fire brigade and an Anglican church dedicated to the patron saints St George and St David. The land around the metal works quickly grew to become an industrial and cultural centre in the region;

About hystory of other main Donetsk factories you can also find in google. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Haiduk

[DMS]

Just now, Haiduk said:

About hystory of other main Donetsk factories you can also find in google. 

Thank you very much, But so what, you say that 1,5 million Donetsk aglomeration with dozens of huge plants was built by John Hughes in 1890s and than slightly modernised by communists?

[Haiduk]

1 minute ago, DMS said:

Thank you very much, But so what, you say that 1,5 million Donetsk aglomeration with dozens of huge plants was built by John Hughes in 1890s and than slightly modernised by communists?

Not Hughes only, I have said "main". Donbas factories have saw last modernization in 50-60th (and not all) . Now most of its, like in 30th were consuming ocean of energy and gas and have too big prime cost of production. As cynical as it may sound, but this war it a chance for Donbas to modernize ineffective industry. After the war of course.

[Haiduk]

24 minutes ago, DMS said:

Thank you very much, But so what, you say that 1,5 million Donetsk aglomeration with dozens of huge plants was built by John Hughes in 1890s and than slightly modernised by communists?

Some other interest example - at the end of 19th century American capitalist Nibur have bought some land and built there a factory of agricultural machines and tools. Because his wife was from New York, he named worker settlement near own factory also New York. This name existed to 1951, when settlement was renamed in Novhorodske (6 km to the west from Horlivka). And on base of Nibur's factories Soviet authorities have established Petrovskyi machine-building factory  

Edited February 6, 2017 by Haiduk

[DMS]

Just now, Haiduk said:

Not Hughes only, I have said "main". Donbas factories have saw last modernization in 50-60th (and not all) . Now most of its, like in 30th were consuming ocean of energy and gas and have too big prime cost of production. As cynical as it may sound, but this war it a chance for Donbas to modernize ineffective industry. After the war of course.

"Main"?! Fantastic.

[Haiduk]

Well, let back at last from politic to tactic..

Position, probably "Almaz-1" from UAV and on the map. 

[cool breeze]

Steve, all that stuff you said about Georgia just sounded like a repeat of what western propaganda was telling us about the situation during the war, to unsuccessfully try to get us amped up for war in time to intercede.  You, as the media did, seem to be overlooking that South Ossetia had long ago peacefully succeeded with an overwhelming vote, and had been successfully running their own government for a long time. 

[IMHO]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

So, almost all "built by Soviet people" main factories are old Belgian and Brittish, only renamed and slightly modernized in 20-30th years of 20th century.

Haiduk, really?  So the main factories "are old Belgian and Brittish" dating back to the end of 19th century "only renamed and slightly modernized in 20-30th years of 20th century." Then it would mean that at the end of 19th century Donetsk had population many times more than the current 1.5 mln it has now. Technological processes have not changed much so for the same output you need the same number of people. Percentage of women working at end of 19th century was quite low compared to current, families had many times more children then they have now. I'd put the estimate at 4-6 mln people  Probably Paris, Moscow, St. Pete, London and New York combined  Beautiful Donetsk of the turn of the century

And by the way, would you enlighten us on how they produced turbojet engines at the end of 19th century? 'Cause one of the sizeable factories in Donbass produces / produced compressor blades for the aircraft engines.

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

For this category I can offer only one - suitcase, station, Russia.

Well, Haiduk, that's called ethnic cleansing.

Edited February 6, 2017 by IMHO

[Haiduk]

34 minutes ago, IMHO said:

Well, Haiduk, that's called ethnic cleansing.

Not ethnic. More mood-cleaning. Public support of "Russian world", especially if you are official or if you was in separatists forces, or you are moderator of anti-Ukrainan network source - you can not be Ukrainian citizen. In better case - passport of non-citizen like in Baltia. They are well done. Local pro-Rusisians, which don't want to study local languages and called Baltians as "fascists", completely isolated from political life and can't provide "Russian world" ideas. But interest, they don't hurry to return to Russia. Looks like to live in Europe as "second sort people" under "fascist pressure" and receive salary in Euros is better than to be a citizen of "great state" in cold Murmansk, Syberia or any other distant Russian regions. 

About Donbas industry - once more. Local soviet industry have grew on 19th century basement, established by Hughes and others. Without their efforts bolsheviks would have received wild steppe. And even in Soviet times, all "industrial giants" of first 5-years plans were designed and built by western (mostly American) engineers and technologists. "Soviet people" - semi-literate workers and peasants just kneaded a concrete and hummered piles 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Haiduk

[DMS]

Just now, Haiduk said:

Local soviet industry have grew on 19th century basement, established by Hughes and others. Without their efforts bolsheviks would have received wild steppe. And even in Soviet times, all "industrial giants" of first 5-years plans were designed and built by western (mostly American) engineers and technologists.  

Plants are built by workers, not by buisness owners, first of all. Workers were Russians, they were living in Russian Empire. Steve Jobs was a Syrian, is Ipone a Syrian product? Population of town Hughsovka was 60 thousands in 1920-s. Now population of Donetsk is 1,5 millions.

And so what? American engineers were paid, it was not a charity. (Though charity also took place, help to starving people by APA organisation)

Just now, Haiduk said:

In better case - passport of non-citizen like in Baltia. They are well done. Local pro-Rusisians, which don't want to study local languages and called Baltians as "fascists", completely isolated from political life and can't provide "Russian world" ideas

Such ideas gave a basement to this war. Inequaty of the people by law is the most disquisting idea.

[IMHO]

3 hours ago, Machor said:

On Aug. 7, state-owned Rossia television showed Sergei Bagapsh, the leader of Abkhazia, the other separatist province within Georgia, speaking at a meeting of the Abkhaz National Security Council. According to the report, which is still on the station's web site, he said: "I have spoken to the president of South Ossetia. It has more or less stabilized now. A battalion from the North Caucasus District has entered the area." 

In September, a Russian officer who fought in South Ossetia was quoted in an interview as saying his regiment was dispatched from the Russian-Georgian border to Tskhinvali on the evening of Aug. 7 and was fighting Georgian forces the following morning. 

Paradoxically - both of them are true. Two battalion combat groups were sent to a field camp in North Ossetia 30km from the border - just it was North Ossetia not the South. And they received the orders to move to South Ossetia very late at night on August, 7. Or actually early hours of August, 8 - at 0100. So "the following morning" at 0630 Aug, 8 they were already at Djava, South Ossetia that is halfway from the border to Tskinval.

The overall timeline looks like this:

Aug, 6, afternoon - Georgian Army is put on high alert

Aug, 6 late night - 3rd and 4th Georgian Infantry Brigades are given orders to move to South Ossetia

Aug, 7 early morning 0100 - Georgia starts mobilization and the Army starts phoning reservists

Aug, 7 early morning - Georgian UAVs are reported crossing into South Ossetia territory

Aug, 7 daytime - Georgia starts evacuating Georgian speaking villages

Aug, 7 daytime - Georgian military seizes the strategic heights on the disputed territory and starts fortifying them

Aug, 7 1545 - Georgia starts to "soften up" defensive positions of South Ossetians with artillery barrages

As you may guess it's hard to hide mass calls to reservists and moving two brigades across half the country - everyone has families, friends, relatives. So everything was clear on Aug, 7 morning.

But the most telling thing is that those articles went to print much later. The Georgian leadership position was that they based their decision to go to war on "intelligence information". And the only piece of "intelligence" they were able to produce was one intercepted call from South Ossetian border guards. One of them asked the other if the armour passed, the other confirmed. Georgians were able to neither detail to the EU Mission what armour passed or where nor any other evidence of early Russian passage of Roki tunnel, including information from Georgian UAVs that were having a field day as neither South Ossetia nor Russian peacekeepers there nor even the first battalion combat groups had any anti-aircraft assets.

Disclaimer: strictly speaking timeline is given by a Russian source. Not propaganda, one of the best if not the best Russian defence analyst with international reputation. And we used to work together many-many years ago  But certainly feel free to challenge me. "Intelligence intercept" part should check out with A-list European/US newspapers - it was a big story. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by IMHO

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, DMS said:

And so what?

That. Both Russian Empire and Soviet Union of 20-30th were technically retarded and could't do nothing without western brains and technologies. Slaves were building pyramids, but this not signs, that they were developing its projects and managed by works. Even in 70th Italian engineers have built modern car factory. Even now Russian military industry have made rush in 2000th bevause of western technologies were implemented. What IR matrix is in T-90 ? Russian designed ? Or French ? 

Quote

Such ideas gave a basement to this war.[/quote]

No, basemant of war is a words of Putin "George! There is no such country like Ukraine!". Basement of war is unwilling to consider that Ukraine is not a part of "Russian world". Basement of war is "borders of Russia there, where is a borders of Russian speaking" and "where we are - is Russia there". Better remedy against Russian expansion is not useless negotiations and compromisses - Russia is never executing its - best remedy is good club in the hand ready to hit a bear.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Haiduk

[IMHO]

5 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

What IR matrix is in T-90 ? Russian designed ? Or French ? 

It's not exactly matrix but it's Belorussian. And you know what? Ukraine uses the same for "expensive" version of tank upgrades

[Lethaface]

14 hours ago, IMHO said:

"One author suggests that the decision to initiate the war was made in April of 2008 during a crisis in Abkhazia when the Russian air force shot down two Georgian drones that were monitoring Russian peacekeeping forces. If true, the Russian military had at least three months to prepare."

So "suggests" and "if true" somehow translates into "clearly shows"? Do we have this level of discussion?

Apart from the established facts that was the first event mainstream media in NL reported of Georgian affairs at the time. It was also the moment I thought that it would escalate further. It did.

[Battlefront.com]

3 hours ago, IMHO said:

Disclaimer: strictly speaking timeline is given by a Russian source. Not propaganda, one of the best if not the best Russian defence analyst with international reputation. And we used to work together many-many years ago  But certainly feel free to challenge me. "Intelligence intercept" part should check out with A-list European/US newspapers - it was a big story. 

I already did challenge you   What you're doing is the same thing I've seen argued many times here and elsewhere when it comes to Russian actions.  Most recently this logic was used in the argument about Debaltseve.  In my experience pro-Russians love to cherry pick their information and liberally distort or ignore anything that doesn't fit a point of view which, in the end, is supportive of the Russian government's actions.  You are continuing in that tradition

What I outlined was years of deliberate provocations by the Russian government on land it was illegally occupying with illegally armed forces illegally interfering with Georgian sovereignty.  Georgia was within its rights to launch the offensive in August, ainly Russia was not within its rights to invade Georgia.  It certainly was not within its rights to carve up more Georgian territory.

Which is to say the factual account of the events directly leading up to the Georgian attack do not in any way challenge the premise that Russia pushed Georgia into the war and welcomed it as a means of furthering its geopolitical goals.  However, it the Russian government had transparency maybe we'd find that we're missing some pretty important facts which might not be flattering to the Russian side of the argument.

Steve

P.S.  I remember another tidbit that I don't have time to cite right now... Russian media was moved into place just before the Georgian attack, which reinforces the other evidence that the Russian government knew it was coming and did nothing to try and change the situation.

[Machor]

Sorry to go OT with this breaking news - it seems we have a new S-21 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuol_Sleng_Genocide_Museum ):

"Syria conflict: Thousands hanged at Saydnaya prison, Amnesty says"

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38885901

"As many as 13,000 people, most of them civilian opposition supporters, have been executed in secret at a prison in Syria, Amnesty International says.
A new report by the human rights group alleges that mass hangings took place every week at Saydnaya prison between September 2011 and December 2015.
Amnesty says the alleged executions were authorised at the highest levels of the Syrian government.

...

Although it does not have evidence of executions taking place since December 2015, the group says it has no reason to believe they have stopped and that thousands more were likely to have died.
Amnesty says these practices amounted to war crimes and crimes against humanity."

[John Kettler]

Machor,

Truly terrible! Thanks for the link, because I thought maybe you were saying there was a new rocket type in hand. Kind of wish that's what it was. 3000+/year hanged. Ick.

Regards,

John Kettler

[DMS]

6 hours ago, Haiduk said:

That. Both Russian Empire and Soviet Union of 20-30th were technically retarded and could't do nothing without western brains and technologies. Slaves were building pyramids, but this not signs, that they were developing its projects and managed by works. Even in 70th Italian engineers have built modern car factory. Even now Russian military industry have made rush in 2000th bevause of western technologies were implemented. What IR matrix is in T-90 ? Russian designed ? Or French ? 

Go on, make re-industrialisation of the Ukraine, build hundreds of plants, become one of the largest economies in the world. Produce thousands of tanks to defeat Russian-terrorist forces. ) It is so simple - just to call western brains. West support Ukraine and will easily give you technologies! So deep understanding of history events, I admire you!

6 hours ago, Haiduk said:

unwilling to consider that Ukraine is not a part of "Russian world"

But it is. There live Russian people, who speak Russian, who grew in Russian culture. You can't ignore it. Forced "ukrainization" - method of the first half of 20th century. It doesn't work.

By the way, how is it going? It seems that sides are regrouping and VSU are planning new offence, probably at the Mariupol. Will there again 2-3 platoons from both sides? Sides have problems with staffing of the 1-st line units. May be it is good, as people are tired of war.

[IMHO]

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

I already did challenge you

Steve, I'm glad you did. Actually I was thinking that may be we differ in fundamental approach to the rights and wrongs in regional conflicts.

The border of the country and the total control of the central government over all of its citizens is a sacred thing for you. So it justifies even full-blown military action against regional populace and severe loss of human life. For me it's not. At the very least because if peoples feel it to the bone they do not want to live together the next stop the train of a limited "law and order restoration operation" takes is ethnic cleansing. Save for Rwanda-like story I don't buy that chaps in any central government really start out on this path of "limited" military operations with an aim to end up at gallows for crimes against humanity. They just genuinely feel their patriotic duty to bring every piece of land within their imaginary lines on the map under their control. So their logic is there're just 25% of "extremists" in the restive region so we come pacify them and the other 75% falls in line. But as this "limited" military operation starts they end up having to have to deal with full 100% of population against them instead of 25% of "extremists". People just don't stand when someone comes from far away and does bad things to their neighbours and friends of many years. So the "limited" military operation becomes unlimited and the central government starts blaming outside influences. After all it promised a quick and decisive victory that hasn't materialized. So I'm saying that outside influences whether real or imaginary is irrelevant. The problem that the central government has is not with the outside influences its real problem is that people in some region just don't want to live with this government any more and they're ready to fight for this.

And the worst thing is that what this region normally wants in the very beginning is inconceivably small in respect to the damage the central government sustains in the end. Back in SOVIET times in 1989 when the conflict started the South Ossetia was an autonomous region within Georgia. All they wanted is to be an autonomous republic WITHIN Georgia. And the SOVIET Georgia responded with barring South Ossetian regional parties from participating in the parliamentary elections and an ever escalating spiral began. So when Saakashvili says Russia artificially created the crisis - it's bull****. Ossetians just do not want to live under Georgian rule and they're ready to fight for it Russia or no Russia. The same with Ukraine. If you remember the conflict started with the newly elected "patriotic" parliament REVOKING the stature of Russian as a regional language in the Eastern Ukraine with a slight majority of 7 representatives of the full 450 member parliament. The country is in the middle of political turmoil of enormous proportions, the population is severely divided in their views and "patriots" try to take away from the people of the East what they already have!? And what was the fight about, was it really so important? It was just the right to use Russian in REGIONAL procedures. And Ukrainian was (and I believe still is) the SECOND language AFTER Russian for everyday use in the WHOLE of Ukraine not just East. So the situation starts to heat up and the "patriotic" battalions are sent to "pacify" people of the East with this attitude of Haiduk - "you fall in line or go live somewhere else". So does Russia somehow "provoke" "patriots" in Parliament to this stupidity? Nope. Now what if you take away weapons from the armed forces of the East? Haiduks will just come across and cleanse the East of the people with the "wrong" attitude. And the cause here is not that the East has arms, the real cause is that the "patriots" of the Western Ukraine truly believe that they're within their rights to come and cleanse the East of the people they consider "unwanted" just because the Western Ukraine currently holds majority in the Parliament.

And not so funny thing about Ukrainian situation is that there's still an option to switch to federation from an unitary state. The East will accept and stays in Ukraine. For me trading legalese for human lives - it's an obvious choice. But the Western Ukraine does not want it as these "patriotic" battalions are now "making sure" the rest of the East "falls in line". And if Ukraine turns into federation then "patriotic" battalions have to go home and start productive life instead of "making sure" everyone "loves" the idea of the Greater Ukraine. That's politically unacceptable - they'd rather cleanse population than allow people to do some little things the way they prefer. You can read it in Haiduks replies or you can turn to Ukrainian parliament speeches - nothing is hidden, it's all there. And besides the majority of Ukrainians doesn't want the war to continue (see the poll results provided by Haidek) so if the elections are democratic the current "all-or-nothing" patriots in the Parliament will be kicked-out and moderates will take over. Will Ukraine still be European-oriented? Most probably, yes, as the Central Ukraine wants Europe as well.

Edited February 7, 2017 by IMHO

[IMHO]

7 hours ago, Machor said:

Sorry to go OT with this breaking news

Not to argue the prison thing. Just an interesting interview with a former head of Aleppo defense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pJQuXvgyyE The guy hardly mentions Assad at all but is truly sorry Aleppo could turn into Shia city from a Sunni one. And pleads for Sunnis from other countries to come and help kill Alawites. Not Assad.

[Machor]

8 hours ago, IMHO said:

And pleads for Sunnis from other countries to come and help kill Alawites. Not Assad.

Erm, did you watch it yourself? He keeps referring to Assad and his regime. He calls on Sunnis to come help the Sunni fighters just as Shiites have come to help Alawites. And he comes across as a pretty nutty guy who believes the West and Turkey conspired with Assad to let him take Aleppo.

I don't see how his statements - or for that matter, all the atrocities that have been committed by jihadist groups - absolve Russia of responsibility for aiding a regime that is running a systematic mass extermination campaign. I mean you oppose the Georgians robbing the Ossetians of their autonomy and the Ukrainian Rada voting to revoke the status of Russian, but mass extrajudicial executions are 'nema problema'?

Edited February 7, 2017 by Machor
Grammar

[IMHO]

49 minutes ago, Machor said:

And he comes across as a pretty nutty guy who believes the West and Turkey conspired with Assad to let him take Aleppo.

I don't see how his statements - or for that matter, all the atrocities that have been committed by jihadist groups - absolve Russia of responsibility for aiding a regime that is running a systematic mass extermination campaign. I mean you oppose the Georgians robbing the Ossetians of their autonomy and the Ukrainian Rada voting to revoke the status of Russian, but mass extrajudicial executions are 'nema problema'?

1. Why do you think I put the link to say this was right?  Quite the opposite, there's no chance Alawites could ever rule Sunnis.
2. May be they did conspire  I guess there was a reason they let neither Shia militia take over the city nor Turkey/FSA. And they needed Chechens as Chechens are Sunni, syncretic but Sunni. So I'd guess partitioning blueprints are on the table.

Edited February 7, 2017 by IMHO