Please BFC, no more titanium trees

[niall78]

I've certainly seen that - first the foliage goes, then, a hit or 2 later, the trunk.

I've also seen this quite a bit. 

Say that I'm playing the great fan made campaign The Lions of Carpiquet at the moment and I'm watching heavy calibre naval and assorted other heavy batteries falling on a small (200m x 50m) stretch of woods. The thing is riddled in craters but miraculously most of the trees have survived with foliage intact. 

[Pak40]

Does anybody recall what trees did when shot up in CMx1? Seems I remember that artillery at least blasted them to smithereens.

Michael

I think trees were really abstracted back then. A single tree couldn't block LOS. The further you targeted into the trees the more it degraded LOS. For area targets I think any large caliber weapon that fired into a tree area would hit the ground and never a tree. Same if you actually targeted a unit. But, I could be wrong. It's been a long time since I played CMx1

[Michael Emrys]

For area targets I think any large caliber weapon that fired into a tree area would hit the ground and never a tree.

I don't think so. I recall seeing a lot of tree bursts. What I don't recall too clearly is how well the trees survived the ordeal.

Michael

[Pak40]

I don't think so. I recall seeing a lot of tree bursts. What I don't recall too clearly is how well the trees survived the ordeal.

Michael

Well, maybe the tree bursts were abstracted too, there was probably a general % chance that the round would hit a tree. I don't ever remember the effectiveness of tree tile coverage being degraded because of high explosives. I remember that forest LOS was very formulaic and predictable, i.e. you could always see x number of meters into light forest and less(but just as predictable) into heavy forest. Moving the LOS line didn't seem to be affected by individual trees, therefore I do not think that individual trees could be destroyed or loose their leaves.

[Wodin]

Nor have I. Must pay more attention.

 

 

??? I have never seen/known/witnessed any CM trees being defoliated/damaged/destroyed/leveled from HE/AP or any other weapon.

Have I perhaps not been paying enough attention?

Got to say it would be pretty cool if they did.

[lordhedgwich]

On 3/14/2016 at 6:08 PM, Wodin said:

 

After a few round the leaves will blow off and sometimes the entire tree will blow up after a few shots, but it doesnt always happen I am playing an H2H where a single tree stopped like 5 75mm He rounds =/

[eniced73]

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/96083-tree-force-fields/?page=3

This has been discussed since the CMSF days.  Cracks me up how many excuses people have come up with to somewhat try to justify the bug.  Separate issue but in the same ballpark are bushes.  They will stop AP rounds and it is easy to test.  Wonder if this is even on their radar to look at?

[lordhedgwich]

1 hour ago, eniced73 said:

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/96083-tree-force-fields/?page=3

This has been discussed since the CMSF days.  Cracks me up how many excuses people have come up with to somewhat try to justify the bug.  Separate issue but in the same ballpark are bushes.  They will stop AP rounds and it is easy to test.  Wonder if this is even on their radar to look at?

Yeah I have seen bushes stop AP/HE its silly really

[cool breeze]

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has been covered but it seems like tree toughness was substantially reduced for the better at some point in the CMx2 wide upgrading/patching thing?  Because I kinda remember them used to be being made of iron, and now they just seem tough.  Sometimes they do still seem too strong, but I think maybe there is some randomness in how tough the tree is?  if there isn't it would be realistic for it to be added. I imagine a big tough old tree might have 5 to 10 times the damage points than a 30ish year old/young tree of perhaps similar height. Of course it would be stupid to shoot at a tank through a tree (trunk)  but if you're shooting at a tank with AP and keep accidentally hitting a big tough tree that is in the way I can imagine it messing up quite a number of shots before becoming a stump.  But I do agree the bushes shouldn't stop AP, and I think it might aid immersion if a lot of the AP shells that hit trees get deflected, so we aren't inclined to imagine the perhaps not that big of a tree fully absorbing those rounds while staying upright. You could also argue that WYSIWYG means the trees should have a toughness per tree type/model but no randomness to the toughness within the type/model.  Which leaves out the unusually old tough trees entirely unless you give em extra models.  That would be cool but probably too much work to put into scenarios, so I think just having the same models cover a range of actual tree sizes/toughnesses seems good.

Edited March 23, 2016 by cool breeze

[eniced73]

In my travels since the inception of CMSF I have yet to see a substantial reduction on the randomness or toughness of trees or bushes.  My opinion is that the randomness to hit a tree should be toned way down.  Should be proportional to the amount of trees in the A.S.  I have seen way too many times that a lone tree or bush that stops 3 or 4 rounds that are aimed at the tank sitting right behind it.  Also the "hit points" should be toned way down.  One hit and the tree or bush should disappear.  The concept of a tree taking a round and all of its leaves falling off but the trunk still standing?  what?  Lets just simulate that the thing exploded and fell to the ground.  In fact a bush should not even stop a bullet or any kind of larger caliber shell.  Just absurd.  Sort of turns into a gamey tactic.  I have seen many players hide or sit tanks behind trunks or bushes to get the extra protection.  Hell, I even catch myself doing it once in a while. 

[Vanir Ausf B]

Although it is certainly possible that further adjustments are in order, tree toughness actually has been adjusted since CMSF. From the CMBN v1.01 readme patch notes:

* Direct hits do more damage to trees.
* Trees are less likely to block large projectiles consistently.

[slysniper]

well, if it was possible. I sure would vote for them to not take as much damage or be able to stop rounds

[Bulletpoint]

In reality, wouldn't an AP shell just go straight through the trunk? I would love to see a slow-motion clip of that.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

I insist on the correct nomenclature which is: "kevlar trees"

If somebody could organize a tank, live rounds and a few trees I would financially support the experiment.

 

[cool breeze]

18 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Although it is certainly possible that further adjustments are in order, tree toughness actually has been adjusted since CMSF. From the CMBN v1.01 readme patch notes:

* Direct hits do more damage to trees.
* Trees are less likely to block large projectiles consistently.

Boy do I love being right

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, __Yossarian0815[jby] said:

I insist on the correct nomenclature which is: "kevlar trees"

Or even tungsten trees, which might be what the OP actually had in mind.

Michael

[eniced73]

Well.  Pat yourself on your back.  Nice that you believe everything you read.  Not that I think BF is throwing some BS in there just to appease us but I do not think that the code was not tweaked enough.  I am surprised if it was tweaked or changed that it was not also QC'd by some in game testing.  No big deal.  Just sort of makes you question why your AP rounds will fly through 3 or 4 buildings back to back but gets stopped dead in its tracks by a small bush.  I think this needs revisited and can be tested with any simple setup. 

[MikeyD]

Wow. You've seen AP fly through 3-4 buildings in the game? Which title was that? Which scenario? Which group of buildings?

[purpheart23]

Most of the time i can't get them to shoot ap into a building, kinda pointless really unless you had the below problem . And if they were shooting ap into a building i think i'd have more of a problem with the TacAI than the effects of the rounds. On that note, Bf should probably revisit AP rounds being stopped by branches, i'm sure it's on their things to do list, though probably not super high on it.

[eniced73]

9 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Wow. You've seen AP fly through 3-4 buildings in the game? Which title was that? Which scenario? Which group of buildings?

Seen it through multiple titles, scenarios, and quick battles.  Here is a little QB I setup to demonstrate.  I have seen AP go through as many as four buildings before but here you can plainly see that it is traveling through at least 3 almost 4.

 

[cool breeze]

But wouldn't a big tree have substantially more inches of wood to penetrate ( and much stronger via thickness and wetness) than 4 wooden buildings? Not wooden buildings and my argument probably falls on its face.

[cool breeze]

http://www.conifers.org/pi/pi/l/lambertiana08.jpg

I live in CA so when I think of big trees redwoods come to mind first, but I know that's not fair for Europe.   So here's a pine tree in CA ( still unfair, I know, we win the tree game).  Id guess it would take over 50 AP shells to stump this bad boy if you weren't deliberately chopping it down with the gun.

 

Here is a nice big oak looking much harder to stump that the last onehttp://etrabelsie.blogspot.com/2010/10/giant-oak-tree.html

and

Edited March 30, 2016 by cool breeze

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

36 minutes ago, cool breeze said:

But wouldn't a big tree have substantially more inches of wood to penetrate ( and much stronger via thickness and wetness) than 4 wooden buildings? Not wooden buildings and my argument probably falls on its face.

For one, even in 1944/45 practically all forests in europe were managed, so trees never got that big.

For two if all forests are made up of giant redwoods in CM, they should be depicted that way. We can expect that from a simulation that also happens to be a game

[cool breeze]

I knew I was using a bit of exaggeration there with those choices of pics, for emphasis and to make the point.  Probably a bad point tho    And Im not talking about the average tree here but the tree that is extra big but still obviously covered by the one and only model for that tree type.  If I had been showing redwoods tho I would have had a car driving through the tree.  Thinking about all these trees getting blasted down by HE is making me think we've got it easy the way trees just disappear now.  If the smaller trees were just falling over after one or two hits we'd have all these horizontal trees providing their trunks as cover and foliage as concealment.  Also the forest ground tends to be relatively log (great cover) free.  But Ill just imagine heavy woods ground cover includes logs.

[eniced73]

deleted

Edited March 31, 2016 by eniced73