Unbuttoned mild frustrations

[Wodin]

My only gripe with the series is how easy it still is to loose a tank commander or halftrack gunner when in open state. It's almost garunteed that the first volley will take them out there by making unbuttoned mechanic not worth it, plus when it comes to halftracks making their teeth pretty toothless. Personally I think either it's way o easy to pick of that head sticking up or they should at least be quicker dropping back down to safety. The Germans I beleive spent alot of time unbuttoned in their tanks and I'm sure if what happens in the game happened in real life then either there was a severe casualty rate for German tank commanders or the policy would be to only unbutton when in known friendly territory plus only those who wnat to commit suicide would man a halftrack MG. It just seems to easy for them to get hit.

 

I do know this has been brought before and I know halftrack gunners where hunkered down abit more awhile ago, though personally I noiced no difference. This really is my only gripe with a series  I truely love.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Wodin

[A Canadian Cat]

Sorry not buying it.  My TC's get nailed from time to time but they duck down and button up more often then they get taken out.  Half track gunners too - at least after the recent patch that set them to a lower stance.  The key is the distance to the enemy.  HTs especially should not be close in - if you stay more then 300m away with infantry a head of them you will loose much fewer HT gunners.  Ditto with tank commanders.

Now you can make the argument that some of the TC open stances are to exposed.  We should probably go through the vehicles and report those that we think are too exposed.  I just lost a PzIV TC this morning - hey it happens - but I was noticing that his stance was pretty good with not much of him exposed.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Sorry not buying it.  My TC's get nailed from time to time but they duck down and button up more often then they get taken out.  Half track gunners too - at least after the recent patch that set them to a lower stance.  The key is the distance to the enemy.  HTs especially should not be close in - if you stay more then 300m away with infantry a head of them you will loose much fewer HT gunners.  Ditto with tank commanders.

+1

[MOS:96B2P]

My only gripe with the series is how easy it still is to loose a tank commander or halftrack gunner when in open state. It's almost garunteed that the first volley will take them out there by making unbuttoned mechanic not worth it <Snip>

I was getting tank TCs hit fairly often.  It seemed like the OpFor was full of very accurate snipers.  I then change my TACSOP and take a more proactive approach with the button/unbutton command.  My TC hits  have gone way down.  When I have a tank area targeting (building, woodline, down a street etc.) the TC does not need to be looking out the hatch because I am telling him where to shoot.  I now check and make sure the hatch is closed.  If I am moving a tank to change positions or arty is coming close I will also check and make sure the tank is buttoned up.  

There are probably two circumstances I check and make sure a tank is unbuttoned.  Conducting overwatch and hunting another tank.  In both cases (tank engagement range is such long distance) my tanks are usually in a hull down or keyhole position with my infantry at least a hundred plus meters ahead of them.  (a few exceptions for Normandy bocage fighting.)  Since I have adjusted my TACSOP my TCs live longer.

Also I use regular motivated TCs.  I think they are more quick to disobey an unbutton order when rounds start to come close by and will button on their own.            

[Wodin]

OK that's fair enough. Obviously my gameplay. I shall have to learn how to reduce the occurance. As with many of the "issues" people nrimng up about the game it usually boils down o poor pla by the player and not an issue with the game. I'm obviously taking to many risks with unbuttoned Tanks.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Aslong as I know others have no issue I'm happy in the knowledge that it's my fault and need to re evaluate how I play.

 

When posts like this I made I do think people who don't have a the particular issue should explain how they go about things in game so there isn't any problem. That way the poster can learn something rather than just dismissing any problem with no further explanation. So thanks for the tips. I have to be less gung ho and not get to close to possible enemy postions with unbuttoned tanks.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Wodin

[Bud Backer]

I also lose a lot of Tank commanders. I think I'm simply not being fair to them and having them get too close to a lot of enemy infantry is a sure way to get him killed.  So I just learned something too.

 

[fivefivesix]

I have also had to re-evaluate my approach to unbuttoned tank TCs. I'll admit I initially had similar feelings as Wodin. But when you consider the circumstances - a tank commander is literally perched, often perfectly silhouetted, up high and away from all the abstracted micro terrain  that might protect regular infantry. I am still relatively aggressive with unbuttoned commanders - I am more willing to take a TC loss than I am to possibly miss a spot on enemy armor and the opportunity to kill it. 

[pad152]

I think the rate of tank commanders being killed is way, way off. The only thing that comes close are the early years on the East Front when most Russian tanks didn't have radio's, tank commanders had to stand up to wave flags or their arms to give orders to other tanks. Standing up in a T-26, T-60  was a good way to get shot when half your upper body is exposed and your waving colored flags.  Compare that to later German/Russian tanks, size of the cupola, where nothing below the nose of the tank commander is exposed when looking out the top hatch, The rate of Tank Commanders being killed needs to toned down or tanks need to have a rating to the cupola size vs. small arms fire. Patton lost a few commanders this way but, US tanks didn't have any copula's on the top hatch.

Edited February 5, 2016 by pad152

[Blazing 88's]

Sorry not buying it.  My TC's get nailed from time to time but they duck down and button up more often then they get taken out.  Half track gunners too - at least after the recent patch that set them to a lower stance.  The key is the distance to the enemy.  HTs especially should not be close in - if you stay more then 300m away with infantry a head of them you will loose much fewer HT gunners.  Ditto with tank commanders.

Now you can make the argument that some of the TC open stances are to exposed.  We should probably go through the vehicles and report those that we think are too exposed.  I just lost a PzIV TC this morning - hey it happens - but I was noticing that his stance was pretty good with not much of him exposed.

+1 (for MOS:96B2P's post as well)... I suck at multi-quotes on this site.
 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Blazing 88's

[MikeyD]

Tanks, AT gun, and HMGs are supposed to be able to far outrange small arms fire by hundreds of meters. But either the typical game map doesn't permit long range shooting or the player is too enthused about charging forward. An unbuttoned TC against SMG-armed units is often safe because of the shorter range of the weapons. Against big bullet rifles and sniper scoped weapons he's got a problem. These guns can reach out and touch you from halfway across a game map. I'm reminded, during the Iraq war national guard units raided their stocks of old mothballed 7.62 M-14 rifles. M4 carbines were good for most tasks but sometimes you just needed that long reach 

Many Russian tanks didn't even have a hatch for the TC to poke his head out of! IS-85 and the KV-1s in particular. The early T-34-76 had that big awkward roof hatch because tactical doctrine assumed the hatch would be closed and buttoned during combat. No peeking.

[sburke]

does anyone else feel kind of uncomfortable with the topic line of this thread when scanning the form? 

[A Canadian Cat]

I think the rate of tank commanders being killed is way, way off.

Correct it is way off because of how we command.  If you adjust how you command your troops you will get better results.   What are you asking for exactly?  All small arm fire to have reduced accuracy so TC's don't get nailed as often?  OR  All TC's to have a special force shield so they don't get hit by bullets?  OR  A magical bamboozling charm so small arms shooters only have trouble hitting TCs but can still hit the enemy? OR A new mind reading device so that they duck down when you want them to?  I don't think that last one will work since you would have to be watching for it to work. Lets go with the bamboozling charm that will fix it.

@MOS:96B2P gave a great write up on what to do.  Much better and nicer than my explanation.  Apparently I am cranky today - GET OFF MY LAWN

[A Canadian Cat]

does anyone else feel kind of uncomfortable with the topic line of this thread when scanning the form? 

Only to those of us with dirty minds

[Michael Emrys]

I was getting tank TCs hit fairly often.  It seemed like the OpFor was full of very accurate snipers.  I then change my TACSOP and take a more proactive approach with the button/unbutton command.  My TC hits  have gone way down.  When I have a tank area targeting (building, woodline, down a street etc.) the TC does not need to be looking out the hatch because I am telling him where to shoot.  I now check and make sure the hatch is closed.  If I am moving a tank to change positions or arty is coming close I will also check and make sure the tank is buttoned up.  

There are probably two circumstances I check and make sure a tank is unbuttoned.  Conducting overwatch and hunting another tank.  In both cases (tank engagement range is such long distance) my tanks are usually in a hull down or keyhole position with my infantry at least a hundred plus meters ahead of them.  (a few exceptions for Normandy bocage fighting.)  Since I have adjusted my TACSOP my TCs live longer.

Also I use regular motivated TCs.  I think they are more quick to disobey an unbutton order when rounds start to come close by and will button on their own.            

Your play is a bit more nuanced than mine. I've developed the habit after seeing too many of my TCs bite the dust of simply ordering all of them to button up at the start of the game and leaving them that way. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to effect their spotting as much as I would have expected.

I like the way you've worked out the subtleties of practice.

Michael

[pad152]

It's isn't just the way some play, there's a reason why most later WWII tanks designs have a cupola (lesson learned). Most tanks were designed before these lessons of combat were learned The problem with CM2, it seems to treat all tanks the same (open hatch, open roof, and tanks with a cupola). I've never seen any data that shows 90% of tank commanders died every they opened the top hatch.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Emrys]

I've never seen any data that shows 90% of tank commanders died every they opened the top hatch.

I never saw the exact numbers, but the Israelis report high loss rates of TCs because TC exposed is the standard way they fight. Understand that this is decades after WW II.

Michael

[76mm]

Correct it is way off because of how we command.  If you adjust how you command your troops you will get better results.   What are you asking for exactly?  All small arm fire to have reduced accuracy so TC's don't get nailed as often?  OR  All TC's to have a special force shield so they don't get hit by bullets?  OR  A magical bamboozling charm so small arms shooters only have trouble hitting TCs but can still hit the enemy? OR A new mind reading device so that they duck down when you want them to?  I don't think that last one will work since you would have to be watching for it to work. Lets go with the bamboozling charm that will fix it.

Cranky indeed.  I don't think we need anything that makes TCs harder to hit, but it would be nice if TCs were a bit quicker to react to incoming fire.  I've lost many TCs when bullets start pinging off the turret and yet the TCs don't consider it necessary to button up, and get waxed.

Sure, we can keep TCs buttoned up all the time, or micro-manage hatch status, but it would be nice if we didn't have to.

[76mm]

I never saw the exact numbers, but the Israelis report high loss rates of TCs because TC exposed is the standard way they fight. Understand that this is decades after WW II.

IIRC, the number was 50%, but its been awhile, so that might be off.  If anything, it was higher.  But of course that was within a campaign, not an hour long battle.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to effect their spotting as much as I would have expected.

I notice the difference in spotting, but my rule of thumb is any terrain within 200m that might be likely to produce small arms/mg fire = buttoned.

I'm also in the camp that the TC's should button up quicker even though my regular opponents and I all use motivation levels or normal or less.

[sburke]

even though my regular opponents and I all use motivation levels or normal or less.

Ken would be so disappointed in your ability to motivate your men.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I'm sure he would, but we just can't abide pixeltruppen that obey every order.  

[George MC]

Just found this - ref Allied tank commanders in Normandy but it quotes a 60% casualty rate amongst tank commanders due to snipers and ordinary rifle and MG fire.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-PXQYVjbp6MC&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&dq=casualty+rates+of+german+tank+commanders&source=bl&ots=qpRV1qfLvc&sig=lOvh64jyE3RR40dnM5A1Vt3k91Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ4dyHs-PKAhWFkA8KHcdTBfQQ6AEIVTAJ#v=onepage&q=casualty rates of german tank commanders&f=false

[kevinkin]

I don't think I ever lost a TC to small arms - perhaps I am being too careful. Unless you are in a very safe/defensive position, doesn't the cost outweigh the benefit?

Kevin

 

[pad152]

Just found this - ref Allied tank commanders in Normandy but it quotes a 60% casualty rate amongst tank commanders due to snipers and ordinary rifle and MG fire.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-PXQYVjbp6MC&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&dq=casualty+rates+of+german+tank+commanders&source=bl&ots=qpRV1qfLvc&sig=lOvh64jyE3RR40dnM5A1Vt3k91Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ4dyHs-PKAhWFkA8KHcdTBfQQ6AEIVTAJ#v=onepage&q=casualty rates of german tank commanders&f=false

Couldn't get the link to work but,I wonder how much of that is based on the early war in Russia? 50-60% is still a far cry from what we are seeing in CM2, plus US tanks (Sherman) didn't have a cupola and a lot had open roofs. All I'm saying if CM2 is going to treat all tanks the same (open hatch, open roof, and tanks with/without a cupola) the number should be toned down.

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

Couldn't get the link to work

Try this one.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-PXQYVjbp6MC&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&dq=casualty+rates+of+german+tank+commanders&source=bl&ots=qpRV1qfLvc&sig=lOvh64jyE3RR40dnM5A1Vt3k91Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ4dyHs-PKAhWFkA8KHcdTBfQQ6AEIVTAJ#v=snippet&q=casualty rate german tank commanders&f=false