The next generation of Gamers

[ng cavscout]

I just bought the base CMBN game as an Xmas gift for my daughters boyfriend. He saw me playing CMRT and seemed interested. When I asked he said he would like to try it out. Hopefully he gets hooked and wants more.

What do you guys see as the potential to keep wargaming like CM and similar games alive in the new generations of gamers? Do you think the popularity of twitch FPSes and crappy RTSes have doomed serious gaming or is there still a glimmer of hope?

[Rosseau]

I'm 58 years old and history got me interested in wargames, not the other way around. With this in mind, the future might be bleak for the newer generation interested in space and high tech stuff.

I also enjoyed reading/studying the 300-page manuals. That is something that the "I wanna play right now" generation is not into (I don't think).

I'm sure the hardware will be available though, particularly in iPad form.

[womble]

There's no reason people who're interested in "space and high tech" can't also be interested in history. The "I wanna play right now" generation is no different to previous generations. It's just that previous generations didn't have anything (significant) you could "play right now", so those that couldn't muster the commitment to plough through "Spurious Points Incorporated" didn't play. They "put aside childish things", as good ol' Mr Kipling advised.

Whether the current more general neoteny of H. Sapiens will be a positive thing or not remains to be seen.

[Apocal]

What do you guys see as the potential to keep wargaming like CM and similar games alive in the new generations of gamers?

The Wargame series (AirLand Battle, Red Dragon, etc.), ArmA series, World of Tanks, War Thunder, etc. are all probable gateways into niche wargaming, to one degree or another.

Do you think the popularity of twitch FPSes and crappy RTSes have doomed serious gaming or is there still a glimmer of hope?

True twitch FPSes are mostly dead. And the RTS genre is dying, if it weren't for Starcraft, it'd be almost dead, replaced by MOBAs.

[John Kettler]

ng cavscout, my long unfought foe,

I've been doing what I can, having exposed two of my nephews first to CMBO, and much more recently to CMx2. One of them I got intrigued enough to buy and play CM:Touch. Back then, they shared a place, but neither owned a computer. I E-mailed them last week with some information and pointedly talked about the range of CM games now out--and the free demos. But my now retired from the Army (mostly Scouts) brother is really growing the next generation. He's already got one of his very young (?) granddaughters interested in gaming with minis! As he captioned the pic he texted me "You've got to start 'em young."

Rosseau,

If they want space and stuff, then they're pre-selecting themselves for SLOD. Meanwhile, they can get Graviteam.

womble,

Full marks for the riff on SPI! Whatever is past full marks for using "neoteny" in a public forum.

Apocal,

I thought MOUT had replaced MOBA?!

Regards,

John Kettler

[altipueri]

Well done John, you commented on use of neotony by Womble before me.

Frankly, I'm just refusing to grow up.

[sburke]

I just bought the base CMBN game as an Xmas gift for my daughters boyfriend. He saw me playing CMRT and seemed interested. When I asked he said he would like to try it out. Hopefully he gets hooked and wants more.

What do you guys see as the potential to keep wargaming like CM and similar games alive in the new generations of gamers? Do you think the popularity of twitch FPSes and crappy RTSes have doomed serious gaming or is there still a glimmer of hope?

As with a few other comments, here and interest in history is what got me really interested. However there is more about CMx2 for me than just that. With the switch to the 1:1 modeling I now also have an emotional investment in my units, that isn't something I have been able to really get out of any other game. The FPS and RPG games tend to have you worry about your character as it is essentially you, but you die and simply respawn. Oh well. CM however has me worrying about pvt Joe who managed to take out that tank on his own and is now in an exposed position the enemy is now aware of. If he gets hit, that is it, he is down. Maybe he is wounded in which case I feel obligated to try and get someone over there to buddy aid him. Hell I have gone so far as to edit ToEs to include medics. Or that scout who i have creeping toward an enemy position that could at any moment get hit by an unknown assailant. CM kind of removes the anonymity of all those pixeltruppen doing your fighting.

I don't think there is anything about this generation so different they couldn't be interested. They for sure have options we did not have in board wargaming. Those required more imagination to appreciate, but by the same token I think what is out there will eventually leave one dissatisfied if something like CM is what you really want.

[db_zero]

First off you're going to have to ask yourself will the younger generation be using PCs in its current form when they are in the 30 and 40's+ and have disposable income.

Then you have to ask are those who currently play these sorts of games willing to accept change.

I just bought War in the West. Great game, probably going to become the best on the subject. For someone like me who was raised on AH and SPI games the way the game is presented is not a deal breaker, but if you suggest adding some graphics to depict the fighting, you often get a reason why it can't or shouldn't be done or some grumpy old traditionalist who doesn't want to see change.

The one thing CM has going for it is its graphical presentation. For a younger generation raised in a graphical interface world and used to seeing things presented graphically it has that going for it.

[Apocal]

Apocal,

I thought MOUT had replaced MOBA?!

MOBA - Multiplayer online battle arena, like League of Legends, Heroes of Newearth, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena

[Quintus Sertorius]

Whether the current more general neoteny of H. Sapiens will be a positive thing or not remains to be seen.

I'm not ashamed to say I had to look that one up, and I'm happy to say it was worth looking up. Well done.

In fifty years we'll all look like the force-evolved guild navigators from Dune.

[Oddball_E8]

There's no reason people who're interested in "space and high tech" can't also be interested in history. The "I wanna play right now" generation is no different to previous generations. It's just that previous generations didn't have anything (significant) you could "play right now", so those that couldn't muster the commitment to plough through "Spurious Points Incorporated" didn't play. They "put aside childish things", as good ol' Mr Kipling advised.

Whether the current more general neoteny of H. Sapiens will be a positive thing or not remains to be seen.

Well, let's see.

I'm a huge star wars fan.

I play Elite Dangerous.

I play Star Wars: The Old Republic (an MMO)

I play War Thunder.

I play Xcom (the new one).

And I also play CM.

There is nothing that says you can't enjoy more than one type of game.

However, I think that alot of "adult" gamers have much too little time (in their opinion anyway) to invest in playing a heavy game like this.

I hardly ever get to play it for example, because I don't feel like I have the time.

So I think that's why more "casual" games like call of duty are more popular.

Because you can just pick up the controller and play for 20 minutes and still have a few complete games.

[RedBarron]

However, I think that alot of "adult" gamers have much too little time (in their opinion anyway) to invest in playing a heavy game like this.

I hardly ever get to play it for example, because I don't feel like I have the time.

So I think that's why more "casual" games like call of duty are more popular.

Because you can just pick up the controller and play for 20 minutes and still have a few complete games.

This is probably the largest obstacle to wargaming.

After that, it is more that crunchy wargaming like CM is just a very specialized and acquired taste. There is something more universal about pirates, elves, Jedi Knights, and other fantastical things over real world historical based games that try to accurately model the period or feel, or something fictional, but trying to hold on as much as possible to real world fidelity of simulation.

I have multiple friends who are very into gaming on both sides of the coin (electronic and board). They have multiple regularly scheduled board gaming nights. It is very rare for crunchy war games to come out in those groups. Generally I have to find specific people who also tend to gravitate to wargaming and tactics to find someone to play a board game like Combat Commander, Sekigahara, or even something like Axis and Allies.

Crunchier games are much more involved, take a higher level of concentration, and that generally leads to a reduced level of social interaction. Combat Mission is about as crunchy as it gets on the tactical combat level.

[poesel]

However, I think that alot of "adult" gamers have much too little time (in their opinion anyway) to invest in playing a heavy game like this.

I hardly ever get to play it for example, because I don't feel like I have the time.

So I think that's why more "casual" games like call of duty are more popular.

Because you can just pick up the controller and play for 20 minutes and still have a few complete games.

But this is actually a 'pro' for CM (with WEGO at least): I can sit down on the sofa after work, pick up the laptop and do a turn or two (or three) whenever wife and kids allow it. No need to wait for anyone to be available but still be able to play versus human opponents. Wego and PBEM are the single reason I can play this game.

[TrailApe]

CM mission gamers are a subset of a subset of a subset.

However there are always new gamers filtering through the various portals and ‘finding’ the CM games.

The avenue I initially followed is no longer open – I saw the CMBO CD in a bargain bucket and thought – ‘I’ll give it a go’. Once I fired it up it was ‘wow – Steel Panthers in 3D’ and I was hooked. Unfortunately, due to the current retail model being followed nobody will ever be able to do that again, which is a shame.

However, my eldest, who is late teens has watched me play through CMBO, CMAK, then CMSF and CMBN was the main instigator in me buying CMRT (personally I have no interest in the war in the East) and no doubt he will lobby for CMBS, especially when/if the Brits are released.

There again, he’s doing History and War Studies at University and seems to be heading for Sandhurst once he’s done his 3 years of debauchery and wenching - sorry - University, so perhaps he’s not your average kid, his younger brother doesn’t seem to be picking up the CM bug, although he does play a lot of strategy games on the PC, so he may yet get bitten.

At the end of the day, people don’t change that much, so there will always be a bunch of new folk out there ready to pick up the games, it’s just will they stumble onto CM at the right stage in their lives?

[A Canadian Cat]

But this is actually a 'pro' for CM (with WEGO at least): I can sit down on the sofa after work, pick up the laptop and do a turn or two (or three) whenever wife and kids allow it. No need to wait for anyone to be available but still be able to play versus human opponents. Wego and PBEM are the single reason I can play this game.

I agree @poesel71 that is how I play it too. There is no way I could get many one or two hour blocks of time to play anything in RT head to head. However I have a friend, who actually likes CM but does not play much anymore. When he has a few moments after a long day at work he wants to turn off and just crash around in call of duty or world of war craft or what ever else he is currently into. He just cannot bring him self to concentrate and problem solve while playing CM. Personally I don't get the attraction but what can I do I think that is @Oddball_E8's point. Like I said I don't relate but some obviously do.

[Vinnart]

I think the biggest feature to attract a younger crowd would be if CM had CoOp multiplayer. They would better relate to something a bit faster, and more team orientated.

[Muzzleflash1990]

I agree Vinnart. As a young person (relatively) I think you are right. Amongst me and my friends most gaming is multiplayer and all the multiplayer games played have some form of coop. The implicit 'rule' is that multiplayer is for playing with friends against strangers or AI. I sometimes show them screenshots from my CM playings, and they always express interest. But they know it doesn't have coop and it thus not eligible. Should be noted that the people in my circle has rather few obligations and much free time is spent in front of the computer on TeamSpeak so it is not a fair representative. So I understand the financial reasons that may preclude a coop option. Although I will still like no note that even outside my circle, among the gaming males aged 20-40 I know, there is still the underlying tendency, that you only play coop and not versus against friends -- yes we are a bunch of conflict shy youngsters who only dare play against AI or strangers .

[Oddball_E8]

But this is actually a 'pro' for CM (with WEGO at least): I can sit down on the sofa after work, pick up the laptop and do a turn or two (or three) whenever wife and kids allow it. No need to wait for anyone to be available but still be able to play versus human opponents. Wego and PBEM are the single reason I can play this game.

I agree @poesel71 that is how I play it too. There is no way I could get many one or two hour blocks of time to play anything in RT head to head. However I have a friend, who actually likes CM but does not play much anymore. When he has a few moments after a long day at work he wants to turn off and just crash around in call of duty or world of war craft or what ever else he is currently into. He just cannot bring him self to concentrate and problem solve while playing CM. Personally I don't get the attraction but what can I do I think that is @Oddball_E8's point. Like I said I don't relate but some obviously do.

Yeah, my point was that if you sit down and play CoD (or something "lightweight" like that) for 20 minutes you actually COMPLETE the game a few times (as in play a few matches from start to finish), whilst if you sit down with CM you'll only be doing a few turns in that same time.

I think that's what appeals to alot of the adult gamers. They can actually feel like they sat down and finished a few matches instead of sitting down and only doing maby 1/10th of a match.

[Apocal]

Yeah, my point was that if you sit down and play CoD (or something "lightweight" like that) for 20 minutes you actually COMPLETE the game a few times (as in play a few matches from start to finish), whilst if you sit down with CM you'll only be doing a few turns in that same time.

I think that's what appeals to alot of the adult gamers. They can actually feel like they sat down and finished a few matches instead of sitting down and only doing maby 1/10th of a match.

In an hour of playing real-time, one can finish two or three small multiplayer quick battles in CMx2. Lacroix does it all the time.

[sandman2575]

CM mission gamers are a subset of a subset of a subset.

^This. CMx2 is never going to be mainstream, but that doesn't mean its future is bleak. WW2 as a 'genre' is hugely popular among gamers young and old. Sure, a lot of this interest is channeled through rubbish like "War Thunder" and the like, but there will always be some gamers whose interest in WW2, initially sparked by mainstream titles like "Company of Heroes," will deepen, and they will start looking for something a little more authentic and detailed.

So, out of 10 gamers who are interested in WW2, perhaps 1 finds his way to CMx2 (and that's probably a massive overestimate... probably more like .01 or even more miniscule). There's nothing in the 'mindset' of the young generation of gamers that would prevent this -- as though they're all incapable of being engaged by anything more profound than "Call of Duty Ghosts". CMx2 is a game for ww2 aficionados and will likely always remain thus.

[womble]

In an hour of playing real-time, one can finish two or three small multiplayer quick battles in CMx2. Lacroix does it all the time.

Goal-focused vs process-focused. Couldn't give a fig, personally, whether I finish a game in any given session. It's the playing that's the draw, not the finding out whether I won or lost and then starting something new. For me, because I'm process-focused not goal-focused. Diff'r'n't strokes...

[sburke]

Goal-focused vs process-focused. Couldn't give a fig, personally, whether I finish a game in any given session. It's the playing that's the draw, not the finding out whether I won or lost and then starting something new. For me, because I'm process-focused not goal-focused. Diff'r'n't strokes...

+1. Sometimes I just like watching my units. Sort of like creating an animated diorama, and then try to get a video or screenshot of it.

[Macisle]

Goal-focused vs process-focused. Couldn't give a fig, personally, whether I finish a game in any given session. It's the playing that's the draw, not the finding out whether I won or lost and then starting something new. For me, because I'm process-focused not goal-focused. Diff'r'n't strokes...

+1. Sometimes I just like watching my units. Sort of like creating an animated diorama, and then try to get a video or screenshot of it.

Same here. Speed of play doesn't even rate on the charts for me. With a company+ in Wego, once the action starts, I usually only do 2-5 turns an hour. If the action is heavy, it's not uncommon for me to spend 30 minutes (or more) on commands for one turn, then another 5-15 minutes watching replays.

The thought of fitting 2-3 GAMES into an hour is a complete turn-off.

Perspective is a funny thing. Watching people play games on TwitchTV has been enlightening. Often, I'm amazed at how little is actually going on in games that younger/more mainstream players are into. I mean, take Arma III. It's not uncommon to see people spend 20-30 minutes just bantering in a small area, while waiting for a vehicle to arrive or someone to do something. I mean, talk about watching paint dry. And that's on one of the "hot" channels! In that amount of time, I could be working full tilt on a turn, organizing lots of men for detailed, combined arms maneuvers. I mean, yeah, it's a single minute of game-world time, but I've been fully engaged while playing the game for the whole command phase.

Shooters are similar. Watching COD-AW, in 20 minutes, on one of the most-watched channels, I saw a guy spawn, die, respawn, run around a building, die, respawn, run around the same area, rinse and repeat the whole time. No mission goals moved forward in that time. B-O-R-I-N-G.

Add to that, that he was stopping every few seconds to type something, and, I mean...Combat Mission is slow?

And how about the games where for every minute of combat, you spend 3-4 minutes reorganizing your inventory after collecting new booty from the dead.

I remember enjoying those kinds of games when I was younger and had so much free time, but now that I'm older and very busy, I want a game that I can jump into whenever I have time and go deep, full-brain tilt for as long as I have to play that session. I don't care about finishing anything in any amount of time--just being fully engaged.

[A Canadian Cat]

I want a game that I can jump into whenever I have time and go deep, full-brain tilt for as long as I have to play that session. I don't care about finishing anything in any amount of time--just being fully engaged.

Well described - I feel the same way.

I know that this is not what @womble meant when he differentiated between "goal focused" and "process focused". I play like I am process focused as described by @womble but I definitely have goals in mind - taking out the enemy I am facing and winning the day!!! I just don't have to do it *today*

[A Canadian Cat]

Oh I should add I would never say to some one enjoying the game that they are playing it wrong. So, you guys that are playing Real Time - cool and going head 2 head over the internet - really cool. I am happy that there are choices in how to play this game.