AXIS : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[gunnersman]

You sneaky SOB!

[$Pec5]

The Thirty Eighth Minute

I have started an artillery barrage and I am firing several mortars into the rear slope area near Hill 126. Hopefully they will cause some damage.

Bil,

How are you targeting the rear slope area of Hill 126 for a mortar barrage?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bil,

How are you targeting the rear slope area of Hill 126 for a mortar barrage?

I have several mortars on the Tits that can see somewhat into the rear slope area behind the Hill 126 ridge. I simply scattered their aim points throughout that area as deep as they could go.. the odd round goes deeper. It is a nuisance only of course, but for now that suits my purpose.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Thirty Ninth Minute

The Spur:

My halftracks have started to make contact and clear the area the Pioneer Platoon and Jpz are slated to pass through. I only saw one member of this team, and I cannot tell what it is.. I am loving the new FOW.

Hill 126 area:

If my blind mortar fire has done nothing I think it has at least made this guy nervous. This quad .50 SPAA vehicle was spotted by my lone scout in the Hill 126 rear slope area. he was obviously driving away from some mortar fire I had close to his position. At turn end he was reversing towards Hill 126... notice how exposed those crewmen are.

Seems I have an icon or two to add to my mod, eh?

Center:

My panzer section in the center overruns its infantry screen.. the lead tank runs into an enemy team which opens fire at close range taking out the TC. This team I'm sure was regretting that decision as immediately the tank started to spray the area with MG fire. There was one survivor at turn end and he was crawling away and under the guns of my infantry.

It was careless of me to let my tanks get in front of my infantry.

In this same area more of GaJ's forces tried to escape this sector, one member of the MMG team falls to tank fire and others are being engaged by my infantry. It's a hot sector.

This was a surprise. GaJ is bringing his M10s back for more... not sure if his target is the Pz-IVs I have on the Hill 109 ridge, or the Panzer section in the center.. the M10s seem to be a little too shallow for the center section so I can only assume he is after the Hill 109 section. of course he is also coming over the top in line, thus exposing one at a time. I'm okay with that.

Even if I do lose one panzer he is risking a lot here.. he has already been spotted by an HMG team on the tits, two mortars on the tits can area fire on them and....

...one of my Hill 109 Pz-IVs got a spot on the lead M10 in the final second.

[PanzerMiller]

Wow...this is getting intense...let's see if those M-10s pay for their aggressive curiosity...

And a bummer about that PzIV-H TC...one can never be too careful, eh?

Remind us where your Elefant / Brumbar section is located?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Remind us where your Elefant / Brumbar section is located?

The Elefant is a bit behind the Panzer section on the Hill 109 ridge... it should have eyes on the M10 position (or at least the area the M10s will have to enter to be effective) next turn.

The Brummbars have split up... one is still on the left side providing overwatch for the push to Tame, the other is moving to the right side to assist the Pioneer Platoon push.. that will give that side a Jpz, a Brummbar, a mortar, and as least three halftracks in fire support.

The last 30 minutes of this battle, win or lose, should be a doozy.

[snake_eye]

Bil,

Have you seen the spare wheels on the back of the Brummbars. On the GL release, they are turning when the tank is on the move? Could you report it in such a way that they can fix it later on. Thanks a lotL

Looks like you are on the move on either side of the road. The FOW as I saw it in a GL scenario is surprising. I discovered a whole platoon which should have been seen at the AAR preview map. Don't you think that the FOW tweaking is too high?

Cheer

[sburke]

Bil,

Have you seen the spare wheels on the back of the Brummbars. On the GL release, they are turning when the tank is on the move? Could you report it in such a way that they can fix it later on. Thanks a lotL

Cheer

It's been reported and Normal Dude is on it.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=109889

[Vark]

Surely a tank crew would me more than rattled to have their TC taken out, he's screaming/groaning or slumped lifeless. Either way, the most important crew member is out of action and the remaining crew are not reversing but spraying accurate MG fire around. Not having a go Bill, your tactics have been highly professional, but tanks react far too quickly and effectively, especially against infantry and especially when having crewmen killed/injured. This then seriously unbalances the role of infantry and diminishes the efficacy and need for combined arms.

[Bil Hardenberger]

...Not having a go Bill, your tactics have been highly professional, but tanks react far too quickly and effectively, especially against infantry and especially when having crewmen killed/injured. This then seriously unbalances the role of infantry and diminishes the efficacy and need for combined arms.

Sure you are having a go... but that's okay.

Okay they lost their TC.. so what was the reaction? They reversed and fired every MG on board.. they didn't fire any main gun rounds.. I think that is perfectly acceptable behavior. What were they supposed to do, lay down on the floor of the tank and cower? BS I say. I say they would most likely say "OH $HIT!!!", reverse while firing every gun on board at the area directly in front of them.

Exactly like they did.

[Vark]

The 'not having a go' was in relation to your tactics and playing style, I think, as a potential customer who has purchased and promoted BF products, I am quite in my rights to make an observation, made by many, that highlights the uncanny ability of tanks to rapidly spot and engage infantry. In CM1, for its many faults, tanks would be automatically shocked by a crew casualty, seems in CM 2 they are made of sterner stuff.

Even If I do accept your scenario and they did fire ahead of them, whilst reversing, it's damn lucky they hit anything, then again you might have that Napoleonic criteria and GAJ the reverse.

[Alan8325]

I don't believe that crews with 'regular' experience and higher should cower in the fetal position quite that easily and the enemy team doing the damage was directly in front of Bil's tank, making it more likely to be spotted and immediately shot at. It looked like the reaction was just fine in this case, but I do agree that tank spotting is too good to the sides and rear in many cases for a WWII tank.

I could even justify making tank spotting in CM slightly worse than in reality to compensate for the lack of gun elevation and depression limits.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The 'not having a go' was in relation to your tactics and playing style, I think, as a potential customer who has purchased and promoted BF products, I am quite in my rights to make an observation, made by many, that highlights the uncanny ability of tanks to rapidly spot and engage infantry.

Of course you have that right, sorry didn't mean to imply I felt otherwise. Yes tanks do spot infantry on average too well.. although I must say that hasn't really been the case in this game that I can tell... GaJ's infantry has been damned tough to spot and most initial spots have been by other infantry.

Also I don't think it was the case in this instance... the infantry opened up at very close range then they were spotted.

Even If I do accept your scenario and they did fire ahead of them, whilst reversing, it's damn lucky they hit anything, then again you might have that Napoleonic criteria and GAJ the reverse.

Not sure of your meaning here.

[Vark]

Don't apologise, I'm useless at deciphering meanings, unless blatantly proffered, especially as my students have mentally already gone on holiday, it's like herding cats at the moment, big, noisy cats!

Napoleon was meant to have said, about an officer who was highly proficient, brave and resourceful. ' "That's all very well," he said, "but is he lucky?"

Your comment about GAJ's team raises another issue, the seeming lack of SA when teams open up. In real life would it not be better to try to sneak away, than blatting the TC? Tempting target though he may be.

I'm a convert to movie view, even though think it's a bit SPR at times it's more atmospheric than the original colours. Some of the screen shots have verged on the visually poetic.

Alan, no one's saying cower, just react in the usual surprised human reaction, action timescale.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

By what magic has your Elefant avoided bogging? In my experience, not from CMx2, granted, a Jagdpanther can bog in dry earth on a sunny day no problem. Your beast is much heavier than that, so what protects it from such a fate? Or is it that I'm not running it and you are?

Vark,

I well remember the Shocked result from CMBO. Maybe BFC should add two variables for how the TC's shot? Nature of casualty and way it manifests to the crew. At, say, a gentle moaning sagging back into the tank, the crew would make a normal morale check. At agonizing wound (accompanied by appropriate screams of pain), the morale check would be far more severe. If the TC's head explodes, causing brains, blood and bits of bone to rain down from above (fortunately, no animation in game), then I'd say a Shocked result would be quite appropriate, barring surviving some horribly difficult morale check. Seems like a reasonable approach, but since I'm fond of oxygen, am not holding my breath waiting for this to be implemented.

Regards,

John Kettler

[pnzrldr]

Vark -

Have read several accounts of German crews in the war fighting through serious crew casualties on their Panzers effectively. Read the actions of one Waffen SS tank driver on the Ostfront who fought through and completed a designated linkup with just himself and the radio operator still fighting that tank. I think Allied crews were somewhat more prone to panic reactions when they took casualties, mostly based on experience. I am having a very rough time right now in a H2H match with a bunch of green German crews who won't do a damn thing after they get hit/hurt. I think the key is to look at the crew experience level and see if their actions match your expectations on the scale between green and elite.

[Freyberg]

There's no way that any but the greenest German crew would panic after receiving one casualty and not even penetrated. That's a historical fact.

I think the way CMx2 AFV crews behave is brilliant. I've had crews bail, back off, panic, freeze or do weird things; I've had them execute complex defensive manoeuvres all on their own, or keep their cool and return fire despite casualties and penetration. The AI is so varied and realistic, and psychologically plausible. You absolutely can't predict what a crew will do in combat - first class game development.

[c3k]

^^^

Well said.

[John Kettler]

This isn't a German crew, and it isn't a sniping incident, but it's a real, primary account by a man who survived having his gorily dead TC's body come crashing down on him. Note what happens next.

Od C. "Chuck" Miller

http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/memoirs.pages/miller.htm

Modern, but understated and nasty. TC KIA, another tanker shot in the chest and a third shot in the shoulder. Unfortunately, no detail beyond that as far as crew reaction.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-04-05/us-tank-commander-shot-dead-in-move-on-baghdad/1830732

Shall return to this shortly, but the combat accounts from the U.S. 749th Tank Battalion make fascinating reading, to include TCs being sniped and one lucky TC who took a graze to the head, from a shot that penetrated his helmet. The not so lucky got dead centered in the noggin.

http://www.pitnet.net/heathde/749/

(Fair Use)

Normandy

"Westbrook had his head sticking out of the tank and was hit by a sniper, right between the eyes."

"Tk Comdr shot in head by sniper SWA (Sgt Disney, "A" Co.)." SWA = Seriously Wounded In Action

"Lt. Woods slightly injured by sniper shot through helmet but continued .."

"Our most common opposition was anti-tank guns, long barrel and high velocity. I remember an occasion when we were going down a road between two hedgerows with a platoon of troops. The first tank hit a mine, blew off the tread, and blocked the road so nothing else could get by. And the Germans were shrewd. They immediately hit the treads of the last tank with an anti-tank gun, thereby making all five tanks useless - a shooting gallery. One of the troop commanders in that incident went into shell shock because he had lost so many troops and was wounded himself. Everybody has their own breaking point."

Belgium to Luneville

"By the way, Infantrymen rode on tanks usually when you were passing through a town. The infantry would focus on the 2nd and 3rd stories to detect snipers or Germans who tried to lean out an upper window and drop a grenade on an open tank turret."

"Kinchloe: Our platoon was set in a defensive position along a river; this occurred before we reached Luneville. Your Uncle Willie's tank was told to move forward by Sgt. Merritt, the platoon leader. They were proceeding along the river and Merritt got hit. He slumped over in the tank and Minielli got on the radio and told his driver Sacre to back up and get out of there: "Sacre: Back up! Back up! Let's get out of here. Merritt has been hit." The captain got on the radio and told Willie to stay up there, that we needed that tank up there. What Willie didn't know was that he had his radio set to broadcast over the air instead of within the tank. (Editor: see log entry for 22 Sep)"

(Fair Use)

Regards,

John Kettler

http://www.pitnet.net/heathde/749/

[Bil Hardenberger]

Thanks John. Good stuff

[MikeyD]

I have a unit history of a British Churchill battalion in NW Europe laying around somewhere that doesn't spare you on the details. A 1st person account of a driver who got sprayed on the back of the head with liquid, turned around to see what it was and found the top half of his TC entirely missing! Taken off by a shell while standing in the turret. Needless to say he freaked.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Fortieth Minute - Part I

So much happening that this turn report will be in two parts.. this is part 1.

Within seconds of each other my two panzers near Hill 109 open fire on GaJs lead M10...

...also within seconds of each other both rounds hit and penetrate...

The inevitable result...

I took a risk this turn with my HQ unit in the Kubelwagen.. starting behind Hill 126 they rushed across the open space between Hill 126 and Tame, using the ground to mask their movement as much as possible. They did receive a few hits from GaJ's bunker (I think it came from there anyway) but they quickly got into dead ground and are just on the outskirts of the village.

This unit is now the pointy end of my spear. This test confirms to me that I can indeed rush an armored force across that ground safely.

Note that I am bypassing anything GaJ has on the reverse slope of Hill 126. He will have to bring those units out of hiding and over onto my side of the ridge if he wants to engage me with them.

Finally I can confirm what I had only suspected.. the ATG on the hill next to Tame was indeed knocked out by my mortar fire several turns ago.

Hill 126 lies in the center background. Hill 109 to the left behind the tree (look for the cluster of unit icons).

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Fortieth Minute - Part II

This is a strange sight.. I don't think I've ever seen a crew mixed like this before. Could this be from the SPAA vehicle I spotted last turn? Was it knocked out by a lucky shell burst?

Regardless, obviously they are hunting my lone scout.. they are off the scent a bit.. but if they find him his days are numbered. he only has 15 rounds left, no grenades and he is a long way from help.

Surprisigly GaJ is pushing at least one Ranger team back over the road into the teeth of my 1st Platoon, panzer section advance. Why?

Note: the M10 in the background is the one I just knocked out. I lost sight of the other one after a few seconds.. but it was moving up as well.. must be sitting to the left of this one.

1st Platoon and the panzer section have repositioned somewhat to be closer to the lip of the road and better able to interdict any of GaJ's forces that foolishly come over the top.

One Brummbar is on the move to my right to back up the Pioneer Platoon assault.

I have this attack planned to go in about six minutes from now. I have plotted a linear barrage on the reverse slope of the Spur that I want to let begin before I rush this platoon through the gap. Ah the synchronization of it!

Also on the move is the KampfGruppe commander.. he is also moving to the right to supervise the Pioneer Platoon assault.

Fun times ahead!

[PanzerMiller]

There's no way that any but the greenest German crew would panic after receiving one casualty and not even penetrated. That's a historical fact.

Freyberg...even under these circumstances???

I have a unit history of a British Churchill battalion in NW Europe laying around somewhere that doesn't spare you on the details. A 1st person account of a driver who got sprayed on the back of the head with liquid, turned around to see what it was and found the top half of his TC entirely missing! Taken off by a shell while standing in the turret. Needless to say he freaked.

I think you're reaching a bit too far here...don't get carried away...

[PanzerMiller]

Fantastic stuff, Bil...the HQ unit rush up to the slopes of Tame seemed a bit ballsy to me...but it's all good when it works! What's your plan for this team?