AXIS : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[womble]

I'm guessing 'towing' code is a bear to make work

Hmm. That might also explain why "pushing" (the converse of towing) isn't allowed, and why there's no "Follow" command (towing could be viewed just like the towed item "Following" the towing vehicle at "zero" separation).

[Vanir Ausf B]

Amen to the .45cal thing.

What makes it even worse is that GIs giving buddy aid to Thompson-equipped buddies prefer to keep their Garands. The only way to scavenge the ammo is with another Thompson user. And since Thompsons are carried by the guy in the squad who is the first to get hit about 90% of the time Thompsons can get scarce quickly.

[pnzrldr]

I think a little more flex in the entire ammo resupply piece should be built in. Would not cost much to put options in for trucks/jeeps/kws etc... with various loadouts. Especially on the US side, it was SOP for CO 1SGs to execute ammo resupply missions in contact for everything up to and including mortar and ATG rounds. Having an ammo bearer as the only option for that is kind of rough. Of course, I am still a bit of a noob and may have missed it in the TOE, but based on discussion here I'm assuming that the standard load for trucks/jeeps I've seen in stock scenarios is all you get, right? Surely 'ammo truck, Company' couldn't be that hard a TOE add, with maybe three or four load out options. The trucks I've seen so far in scenarios are only carrying like eight or so total ammo cans of ammo! On a full size deuce and a half!!! I believe that executing ammo resupply in contact is difficult enough in the game to be both fun and realistically challenging. Encouraging it with more ammo carrying options would improve the game. Would also serve to highlight one of the real drawbacks to being a paratrooper in post-drop scenarios, as obviously they have no trucks.

[womble]

What makes it even worse is that GIs giving buddy aid to Thompson-equipped buddies prefer to keep their Garands. The only way to scavenge the ammo is with another Thompson user. And since Thompsons are carried by the guy in the squad who is the first to get hit about 90% of the time Thompsons can get scarce quickly.

I can certainly live with a GI keeping their Garand in preference to the Tommy gun; it's a very useful weapon in itself, assuming they can only have one weapon. And I don't think it'd be right for a dogface to nick his comrade's Tommy gun if said comrade wasn't dead. I'd be happier, personally, if troopers were permitted a second weapon. I know carrying a rifle and an SMG is an awkward embuggerance, but it pales compared to the hassle involved in carrying a rifle and an M7-equipped rifle plus the RGs, or a rifle and a bazooka plus 6 rounds, both of which occur routinely; if you split an AT team off a US infantry squad, you'll often get the two man team carrying 3 rifles (one with the M7), a bazooka, 4 x 66mm Rifle grenades, 6 x 66mm zook rounds and ten grenades.

That the squad leader gets hit first is, IMO explained by the fact that they tend to hog the "best" observation (and firing) position. Which is contrary to most of their role and not an efficient use of their weapon (it's been said that squad leaders got given a Thompson so they'd stay out of the firing line and concentrate on their C2 duties). I can understand the engine putting the guy with the binos at "first prairie dog" but it would be better if it could handle only doing that when sneaking for observation purposes, rather than in a firefight, or on the advance, when I reckon one of the guys picked out for Scout Team splitting (lowest leadership, no specialisations) would be "on point".

[Vanir Ausf B]

I can certainly live with a GI keeping their Garand in preference to the Tommy gun; it's a very useful weapon in itself, assuming they can only have one weapon.

The problem is there is only 1 Tommy gun in a squad, so if you lose it you lose some tactical flexibility. I like being able to spit off an assault team with the Tommy gun for, well, assaulting while the other team provides cover fire with the BAR.

[womble]

The problem is there is only 1 Tommy gun in a squad, so if you lose it you lose some tactical flexibility. I like being able to spit off an assault team with the Tommy gun for, well, assaulting while the other team provides cover fire with the BAR.

Oh, I don't disagree. I was thinking more along the "a soldier is going to keep what he's used to, and has the ammo in his pouches already if he's only allowed to carry one weapon" lines of verisimilitude. From the POV of the player, keeping the chopper is obviously far preferable. Keeping the sarge off the firing step like he's supposed to be would be a good first move, though.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Twenty-Ninth Minute

The assalt on Hill 109 continues...

In the top image Team A bounds past Team B which is providing cover fire. In the background the halftrack advances quite close trying to stay on the reverse slope away from the eyes of the ATG near Tame.

Bottom image.. my scout team is within 20 meters of the foxholes... they can clearly see the mortar team now.. or could before they went to ground. Two members of that enemy team are dead, one is cowering and another (the leader) is crawling away.

All support fire has lifted from the enemy teams on Hill 109, it is all on 2nd Platoon now to mop up the enemy on the objective.

On my right side my advance into the Sunken Road is moving forward. The foxholes that contained the enemy MMG team is right around the bend seen in the top image (near the letter 'd' in Road).

Team B can clearly see that the enemy sniper team has lost both members. I am surprised that I am now getting zero enemy fire on my units. Could GaJ have evacuated this line? My entire 3rd Platoon is moving in on the treeline to find out.

While the one squad advances into the Sunken Road most of the rest of the platoon, an HMG team, and a mortar fire on the few (now faded) enemy contacts I have in the treeline.

Finally here is the SITMAP for turn 29... note that 2nd and 3rd Platoons are both moving forward.. 1st Platoon is now holding position.

NAI 4 has been satisfied and has been removed. I will be reconnoitering into NAI 3 next to check it out as well. But with no fire on my halftrack or infantry squad that are now on the other side of the ridge I doubt there is anything there either.

I have determined that GaJ's bunkers are no threat to me at this time.. my troops, even the units his Tame bunker can see are simply too far away for any of his fire to be very effective.

It has been a long time now since I saw any hint of any of the other armor that GaJ is fielding.

[solinvictus202]

I believe that saying "thanks" for this brilliant AAR makes for an appropriate first post from a long time lurker since the first CM-games....

always looking forward to the next new entry!

[John Kettler]

Bil,

I appreciate your well-reasoned feedback.

Sublime,

I'm having trouble dealing with the vs AI because I have very few games under my belt (on fifth?), have never played CMSF, thus, am struggling to learn a wholly new system, have been subject to all sorts of travail and disruptions--and have had to stand down for an extended period, only recently returning to CMBN. That was when I discovered how perishable my CMBN skill set really was. Not like learning to ride a bicycle. That's for sure.

As for my thoughts on potential tactical solutions for the problem posed by GreenAsJade, they don't fundamentally depend upon my mastery/lack thereof re CMFI, a game I don't own (lucky to have CMBN), but are instead solidly based on both military theory and battlefield solutions.

noob,

I'm not talking about driving the Elefant through a defense with the Elefant sans infantry. I know how that could play out. Read about something called a Ferdinand at Kursk. Rather, I'm talking about dealing with one where it's used as Bil is using it. The Elefant as deadeye, practically unkillable long range antiarmor/antimateriel sniper, a sniper using concealment and terrain to best advantage. The Elefant which never moves until the next good firing position has been taken and secured. In the context of the QB, how do you deal with that?

Considering the meager options, I thought I made reasonable suggestions. And if you look at the history, it was naval gunfire, lots of it, aided by FA firing over open sights, that stopped the Hermann Goering Division's Panzers, including Tigers, at Gela. I think tacair's altogether too iffy to risk the game on one or two fighter bombers which are supposed to kill the heavy armor. And JasonC can readily produce the air attack effectiveness numbers for tacair vs armor to back me.

pnzerldr,

It's not as bad as you think--except BFC hasn't provided them. Here's how lots of ammo and gear got moved during WW II. Hand carts. These can also be towed by jeep, weapon carrier, truck, etc.

http://www.theliberator.be/handcart.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bil Hardenberger]

I believe that saying "thanks" for this brilliant AAR makes for an appropriate first post from a long time lurker since the first CM-games....

always looking forward to the next new entry!

Well thank you, I'm honored.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bil,

...

I'm not talking about driving the Elefant through a defense with the Elefant sans infantry. I know how that could play out. Read about something called a Ferdinand at Kursk. Rather, I'm talking about dealing with one where it's used as Bil is using it. The Elefant as deadeye, practically unkillable long range antiarmor/antimateriel sniper, a sniper using concealment and terrain to best advantage. The Elefant which never moves until the next good firing position has been taken and secured. In the context of the QB, how do you deal with that?

John you should play more.. you are very insightful.

There is a solution to how I am using the Elefant and that is to stay mobile, keep moving to where the Elefant is not, ambush it if possible... frankly don't allow it to engage the high value targets easily. Smoke, flank, attack.. of course that requires a much more mobile defense than GaJ has obviously fielded.

[herr_oberst]

John you should play more.. you are very insightful.

There is a solution to how I am using the Elefant and that is to stay mobile, keep moving to where the Elefant is not, ambush it if possible... frankly don't allow it to engage the high value targets easily. Smoke, flank, attack.. of course that requires a much more mobile defense than GaJ has obviously fielded.

I would think that a version of the "Find 'em, fix 'en, fry 'em" scheme is the only way to approach such an opposing element.

Of course, Bill has done a wonderful job of making that difficult. When an asset is protected as it is, it simply compounds the problem for the Allied player. But you certainly cannot afford to let the Axis player have his way with that unit; the costs are too dear.

An Elephant is not a "fast" unit, and the lack of a turret is an attribute that has to be pressed in order to exploit that vulnerability -- first by stripping its supporting cover. From the Allied point of view, how much can you afford to concentrate on that one unit in an attempt to kill, versus making sure that you don't show a weakness elsewhere, or provide a "target of opportunity" to that unit.

The idea of a "pawn sacrifice" comes to mind, but that is relying more on the limitations of the game engine, and the one minute window for orders rather than beating your opponent's tactical skills.

If you have a notion of where that unit is, I would think that you would maneuver to minimize its usefulness; while keeping an eye on the chance to attack. If the Elephant never gets another kill, then the cost-benefit ratio *might* work in GaJ's favor, provided he counters Bill's maneuvers, but he'll have to be awfully judicious in exposing other any units to its firepower.

Playing against such a unit when you don't have something that can stand toe-to-toe is akin to playing a game of chess -- how do you minimize the force exerted by a piece -- denial of terrain. Essentially a game of "cat and mouse", but keeping eyes on that unit allows you the chance to minimize its potential usefulness. But even that comes at some cost, and Bill seems determined to make the opponent pay that cost through careful planning. A testament to both players.

That being said, thank you both for giving us all such a wonderful set of DAR's to slobber over while we wait for BFC to actually release the GL module to us "commoners".

[John Kettler]

Bil,

Thanks! Always nice to know someone whose opinion I value finds what I have to say worthwhile. As for playing more, I'm working on it. Am playing Barkmann's Corner as a way of dipping my toe back into the water. Am Barkmann. Right now, that's about my speed and a good way to restart my CMBN experience. I can handle a tank and some infantry, though first squad might disagree with the latter assertion! Am doing well so far.

Regarding the potential counter to your force, for this map and in a QB, I take your point, but GreenAsJade is in a situation akin to the anaconda's coils. Even were he as mobile as you perceive he should've been, he couldn't trade space for time. The battle type simply doesn't allow it. As you grind forward, you progressively curtail his safe zones and strangle his options.

The Elefant is fearsome indeed, but to him, your other armor is every bit as deadly, though killable, but further limits where he can operate and how long.

Your Elefant acts as the fixing force (anvil), while your other components (hammer) force him to either fight (which you make sure is a lopsided clash) or die, from a variety of causes. Additionally, because your hammer is fully armored and supported by infantry, he is vulnerable to weaponry yours are not--81mm mortars up. This is because his best gun option, as the U.S. player, is the M10. Wouldn't be so bad if he had HVAP, but it's not there yet. Good news for you!

Smoke would postpone this but not prevent it outright. That said, blocking your long range shots (spitting distance for the Elefant) would certainly help. If he does that, though, he has to win a knife fight, under fire from your numerous armor and, worse, your dispersed infantry. One grenade...

Knowing what I know now, I'd take a considerably different force. But then, I'd have to fight both you and that Murphy guy! Frankly, I'm surprised GreenAsJade not only got shots against your Elefant, but made hits, too. Things tend not to go that way in my battles.

I'd say your Achilles heel is your infantry, and any real solution would have to address that issue. I think, too, there are several ways to perhaps defend effectively against your formidable and formidably wielded force, but would they work against you? Finally, the grim reality is that my analytical abilities a) aren't matched by my combat execution and tend to be disrupted, even forgotten, once the shooting starts.

Regards,

John Kettler

[noob]

I'm not talking about driving the Elefant through a defense with the Elefant sans infantry.

Neither am I. I should of been clearer. It cannot be everywhere at once. So given a more mobile defensive force, it could be avoided, and it's support elements eliminated, thus making it vulnerable to close range assault. However, that depends on the defenders force selection, which in this case is relatively static.

Read about something called a Ferdinand at Kursk.

A bit patronising don't you think ? You would have to have just started reading about the Eastern Front to not be familiar with that battle.

[John Kettler]

noob,

Clarification appreciated. The Elefant indeed can't be everywhere at once, but well sited, it can and will exert a fairly paralyzing effect. Limited traverse is not as big a deal at 1+ km as at, say, 500 m. Entirely different issue. If M18 Hellcats were available, then the flank and bite approach would become a lot more doable, since they're both fast and small, thus hard to hit. But once hit, by much of anything...

As for your comment on my tone, I invite you to revisit what you said in making your initial reply to me. A bit glib and dismissive. And that "read" I wrote was not the imperative to you, but the past tense for me.

Maybe one day, when I've figured out how to operate in a CMBN or maybe CMFI (dare I hope Gustav Line) environment, we'll cross swords. Of course, by then, everyone will be bored with Bagration and salivating over the Crysantema tank destroyer and the Challie 3! Sigh.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Baneman]

Quick question wrt the Elefant and advice to flank it ( good advice, but always easier said than done of course ) - how fast does it rotate if, for eg, a bunch of Ami tanks roared out of the long grass to its side while stationary ?

[womble]

...if, for eg, a bunch of Ami tanks roared out of the long grass to its side while stationary ?

I don't think the grass is that long. It'd have to be elephant grass to hide a tank...

[$Pec5]

I don't think the grass is that long. It'd have to be elephant grass to hide a tank...

Hahaha wow, nice

I am definitely taking a lot away from your game and attempting to apply it to my own PBEMs. I have only completed a single PBEM thus far and am in a few more, so things like this DAR (and direct experience) are helping to build my skill level. I appreciate you taking the time to provide such a detailed DAR to the community.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Thirtieth Minute

I'm so close with my scout team that I can smell the mortar team... one more member of that team falls to a grenade this turn. That will leave just one soldier. That last member of the mortar team will be the last survivor of GaJ's Hill 109 defense... but I doubt he'll survive for long.

The Hill 109 objective is mine now. The MMG team loses its last man this turn and my halftracks, one full of infantry are on the objective. That squad will dismount help the scout team clear out the remnant of the mortar team then take the lead on the assault for Hill 126 (red circle in the background).

Yes I am already thinking about the next objective and my reorg time on this objective will be short as I am passing one squad through the chaos and pressing on directly to Hill 126.

Now that Hill 109 is taken I shifted my support assets and area fired on the location the ATG near Tame was spotted several turns ago. I need to remove this gun from play if I want to keep moving down the S Ridge.

On the other side of the map (not pictured) my artillery has finally started to fall on the suspected location of GaJ's ATG that killed my two halftracks... long time coming. I can only hope to get lucky there.

2d Squad clears the Sunken Road...

...as GaJ abandons the position... good thinking on his part as my mortar fire has suddenly become very accurate on his foxholes. The Spur objective will be captured in a few turns.. I need to carefully clear it in case GaJ has left any surprises.

[womble]

Quick question about icons:

As it stands in FI, a vehicle loaded with passengers shows its icon, plus the icon for the passengers, yet, in the shot of your 2 half tracks, the track with all the heads lining it appears to only be displaying the "half track" icon. Is this a general change? I've always thought it was a bit mysterious how the passengers were identified as soon as the vehicle was spotted.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Quick question about icons:

... in the shot of your 2 half tracks, the track with all the heads lining it appears to only be displaying the "half track" icon. Is this a general change?

No it's there.. was cut off when I cropped the image.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

I just don't get these people! They think you're showcasing the improved FOW feature, but that's not it at all. They're obviously missing the Minute 30 addition of the contortionist Landser (either that or the guy with the grenade's going to need a chiropractor) and the incredibly obvious earlier pic of 3-inch hover gun (Harry Potter nearby doing Levioso?).

On a more serious note, were you a British officer doing what you're doing, I think your instructors would be mightily impressed with the way you're handling your force. Your infantry seems to be doing very nicely, whereas mine on the attack is shot to pieces practically from the get and continually thereafter. Your infantry fight is so well-oiled it more nearly resembles maneuvers on the Salisbury Plain than war. Speaking of war, that guy who threw the grenade should be pulled out of the line and sent back to the Infanterie Schule to teach the Hammel the proper way to fling a Stielhandgranate. He's practically a sniper who uses grenades instead of a rifle.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

That picture of the grenade toss is a great one!

(JK: look at a picture, not film, of any pitcher at the back of his windup: the arm SEEMS to be in an impossibly contorted position: it is not: the dynamics of body motion are far different than the static poses would lead one to believe: <-- an extra colon, just because. )

Ken

[sburke]

That picture of the grenade toss is a great one!

(JK: look at a picture, not film, of any pitcher at the back of his windup: the arm SEEMS to be in an impossibly contorted position: it is not: the dynamics of body motion are far different than the static poses would lead one to believe: <-- an extra colon, just because. )

Ken

I can't believe you'd say that Ken. This is proper form for body motion they should have been modeling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjTQV6CjAPE

[John Kettler]

c3k,

I do think the animations have some peculiar joint connection/joint movement issues, and this pic we're discussing would seem to be one. Also, if you go to CMSF and look at the bizarre postures of the UNCONs shooting prone you'll see some doozies. And how would you know that guy throwing the grenade has an extra colon? Not only is that TMI, but isn't it a HIPAA violation or something?

This is how GreenAsJade wishes the grenade had been thrown!

Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way.

Regards,

John Kettler