Unsere Mutter, unsere Vater

[poesel]

poesel, what are the odds that this book will ever be made into a movie? In Germany?

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Soldier-Guy-Sajer/dp/1574882864

I haven't read the book (but will) so this refers to amazons descriptions and the comments.

No, I don't think it would be made into a movie in Germany. Several reasons.

- it's only(!) about the war. It would show German and Russian war atrocities but leave out the Holocaust and politics. That's similar to trying to make a movie about the US civil war and leaving out slavery (this is NO comparison between the Holocaust and slavery!). Leaving out these topics will create a sh*tstorm from the critics. It was ok for 'Das Boot' because (nearly) everyone dies at the end.

- the guy is French (pun intended). So what ever he does would somehow fall back on France and point away from Germany. Not a good idea for a German WWII movie.

- this movie would be expensive and the German market is not that big. There is already 'Stalingrad' which has the catchy name and this new film would have the 'same' subject. Not a good economic prospect.

- every WWII movie is a tragedy for a German ('tragedy' as a category like 'comedy'). No matter what, you always root for the home team. Even if they are clearly the evil ones, you can't help it. But you know that they will lose in the end. Tragedies don't sell that well.

[Nidan1]

What makes me wonder most is that the military errors didn't come up here. If not this forum who else would cry foul first?

This thread sort of tracked through the human interest content, and for us non-Germans (I speak for myself), how would Germans portray some of the atrocious behavior their ancestors perpetrated on other people during the war.

The fact that a Russian soldier was using a Panzerfaust in 1941 or maybe that the war actually started in 1939 was not really the paramount point of discussion.

[MG TOW]

I haven't read the book (but will) so this refers to amazons descriptions and the comments.

No, I don't think it would be made into a movie in Germany. Several reasons.

- it's only(!) about the war. It would show German and Russian war atrocities but leave out the Holocaust and politics. That's similar to trying to make a movie about the US civil war and leaving out slavery (this is NO comparison between the Holocaust and slavery!). Leaving out these topics will create a sh*tstorm from the critics. It was ok for 'Das Boot' because (nearly) everyone dies at the end.

- the guy is French (pun intended). So what ever he does would somehow fall back on France and point away from Germany. Not a good idea for a German WWII movie.

- this movie would be expensive and the German market is not that big. There is already 'Stalingrad' which has the catchy name and this new film would have the 'same' subject. Not a good economic prospect.

- every WWII movie is a tragedy for a German ('tragedy' as a category like 'comedy'). No matter what, you always root for the home team. Even if they are clearly the evil ones, you can't help it. But you know that they will lose in the end. Tragedies don't sell that well.

poesel, what are the odds that this book will ever be made into a movie? In Germany?

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Sold.../dp/1574882864

I read this biography a long time ago. he mentions very little of the Holocaust, or the SS for that matter because it seems he didn't cross paths with it as a support soldier and later when he transfers to the GD division. Having a German mother/French father and being only 16 at the start he didn't even have a grasp on the politics. The atrocities he witnessed and describes were committed by the military police and usually against the Wehrmacht soldier as a form of summary execution. So as a movie this would probably avoid some issues completely.

As for the OP, Our mother/Our father movie.... it suffers from little world syndrome big time. WW2 takes place only in Poland and the Wehrmacht consists of 150 guys and 1 field hospital where everybody's paths cross.

[Canada Guy]

Erwin,

I think you are referring to "The Devil's Guard". An entirely different book (though if made into a movie would probably not play in France all that well as the SS look like they were much more effective than the French were). I have heard that it has been somewhat discredited though but it would make a great movie.

There are few books looking at the war from the German soldiers point of view in English. "Panzer Gunner" was another but though at times interesting does not have the same impact upon you while reading it (unless you get all hot and heavy about sighting reticles and transmissions) as "Forgotten Soldier".

I found "White Tiger" movie the other day but have not gotten the subtitles to work yet. Is it worth the effort? There is also not much on the Russian soldier in English, except perhaps "Ivan's War" but you do not get a good feel from that book either as everything seemed to be from the revisionist Soviet lens where all Soviets were great and all Germans bad view. I would like to see a soviet "Forgotten Soldier" but I think that time has passed.

[Erwin]

I recall also reading "The Devils' Guard" - both very interesting books - something like 45 years ago(!!). I wouldn't be surprised if I have em mixed up in my head now.

[Vark]

It's a novel, suffers from all the faults of such works, written at the time, but is still a powerful story. Doubt there would be much of an audience, outside of Russia though.

http://www.amazon.com/Days-Nights-Konstantine-Simonov/dp/B0006AQQOI

[Aragorn2002]

Read the Red Gambit series by Colin Gee. Stalin attacks what's left of Western Europe in the summer of 1945. Historical fiction at it's best.

After reading the first part of a series of three (so far, since it is continuing) I most strongly repeat my recommendation for these books. You can check them out in detail since Amazon offers a Look Inside function. As said in my quotation it is about a Soviet invasion of Allied occupied Europe in the summer of 1945. Espionage, battles, tactics, personal stories, it is all there and a lot, lot better than most historical fiction.

These books would be a GREAT subject for a CM game.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Opening-Moves-first-Gambit-Series/dp/1468145134/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1365663698&sr=8-4&keywords=COLIN+GEE

[agusto]

A very interesting documentary about a real life "Inglorious Bastard":

http://www.3sat.de/mediathek/index.php?display=1&mode=play&obj=36141

It is in german, but i recommend you to watch it if you understand the language. And if you do, do so soon, i dont know how long 3sat is going to leave it online (it is a legal upload provided by the TV station that produced the documentary).

EDIT: Short summary: In 1939, at the age of 17, Alfred Müller, a Jew, leaves Austria and goes to Palestine. His family stays behind and dies in the Holocaust. In 1945 he returns to germany as a british soldier and abducts and kills people whom he and a group of others supect to be former Nazis.

SPOILERS BELOW - SPOILERS BELOW - SPOILERS BELOW - SPOILERS BELOW

I find this to be really controversial beahviour because IMO the evidence they had was not enough to justify a death sentence. They only had a list of names they had got by yugoslavian partisans and trials took around 30 minutes. No witnesses were questioned and maybe the confessions of the killed were forced (we dont know the latter, though, but i think it is possible because he said that all but one confessed). On the other hand, from an emotional point of view, i can understand why he and the others felt the need for revenge after they found out what had happened to the jews, especially since most fromer Nazis were not brought to justice after the war. But you cant kill someone and call it justice if you dont know fore sure he is guilty IMO. On another german speaking forum i am posting this documentary triggered a long discussion, also because many people believe that (in theory, not gonna happen for political reasons i am sure) he could be charged with murder in Austria for what he did if returns now.

EDIT2:

Also just found a newspaper article (english) that provides some more background info:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/jewish-brigade-shot-nazi-prisoners-in-revenge-1191139.html

[Sublime]

Anyone remember the novel Winter?

[Lee]

Almost no war movies get made without anti-German propaganda in it, you always have at least 1 or 2 guys mentally agonized in some artificially forced way (I'm not talking about the usual stuff soldiers in every army feel in combat), or some soldiers behaving in some ultra-stereotypical caricature way. It's all quite silly and very tiresome.

It would be great to have a good war movie with realistic depictions of soldiers on all sides. Enemy at the Gates is sort of a rare exception to this (although they are sure to show the Germans do at least one really harsh thing..), but at least they don't throw the usual political propaganda in there, so it's a breath of fresh air. And they show what evil bastards the communists really were to their own soldiers and people in general, also something rarely shown. You might not like the movie for other reasons, but it does have those qualities, which are hardly ever seen in a ww2 movie.

As for what German soldiers were really like, and what motivated them to fight, in this video below some of them talk about the actual reasons they were fighting, in their own words and with clear and educated reasoning. These are the things never shown in ww2 movies, and usually not even in "documentaries". And considering the horrific blood bath of 20+ million murders the communists committed even against the Russians in their own country, it rings true as regards to their intentions.

[Humbug]

Personally I wouldn't take Enemy at the gates as a realistic depiction of any kind, but maybe that's just me.

[Saferight]

Personally I wouldn't take Enemy at the gates as a realistic depiction of any kind, but maybe that's just me.

Sad thing is more people have seen that pile of crap that is Enemy at the Gates than Stalingrad.

[poesel]

Lee, I don't know if you speak German or not. The subtitles in the video are not wrong but you need to get the intonation to really understand the mindset of these guys. The gestures show some.

These guys were and are firm believers of the Nazi propaganda and would march on Russia instantly if their old bones would allow it. For them the Wehrmacht committed no crimes - obviously because it was forbidden. An argument as German as it can get.

It is a sad truth that you can indoctrinate people beyond the point where reason works. Even after all they believed in is in ruins. Looks like this kind of stubbornness gets worse with age.

[Wodin]

Anyone remember the novel Winter?

Len Deighton novel..superb read.

[DLaurier]

Whereas reducing your arguments by calling someone a nazi sympathizer despite all evidence to the contrary or other tactic to belittle discussion opponent is perfectly acceptable?

As a person with more brown ancestors than white ancestors I have my own oppinion about who were the heroes, and who were the villians, of WW2.

It was a different time, with different attitudes. Racism was universal among allied nations as well as axis. Every country had its share of injustice.

The point is that we now know better, or we at least SHOULD know better.

Lets bring this discussion back to topic now.

[Lee]

poesel71: Who says that it's just Nazi propaganda that the communists wanted to take over and enslave countries in Europe? The German army vets from WW1 were fighting the communists in the streets between the world wars, as the communists were trying to take over Germany, as well, same as they did in Russia. Which was the basis of much where the whole Nazi movement got started in the first place. And they certainly tried it with Finland, not to mention forcibly took over control of eastern European countries, which they had no right to, after the war, so their intentions were plain and the threat was real. And we all know what the communists do when they take over a country...

As for the German soldiers, they stated what they knew based on their experience, having lived it. I don't think anyone is claming that there were never ever any crimes committed, but that there were rules against it and punishments for it. And in the example stated, it was a violation of the rules of war for those out of uniform to be fighting, this would put you in a similar category as a spy, subject to lawful execution. The same as the Americans did to German spies if we caught them, we executed them, we didn't give them cookies and put them in jail, we killed them. The difference is that the Americans had the luxury of being isolated by the Atlantic ocean. If we had hostile people running about behind our front lines blowing up rail lines, shooting American soldiers on the roadside, etc., we would have been executing a lot of people (justifiably so), as well. And if you engage in fighting, killing soldiers, sabotage, espionage, etc. out of uniform, you are doing so knowing the risk that goes with it.

The allies committed plenty of their own crimes, murdering defenseless German soldiers who had been captured. Watch the documentary, "In Desperate Battle - Normandy 1944". The soldiers who were there tell in their own words what Allied soldiers did to some captured German soldiers in multiple incidents even as early as at the Normandy beaches, right from the very beginning on the fighting in Europe. And in the cases cited, this was not in the heat of battle 15 secs after a nearby American or Brit soldier was killed or something like that, but in rather in cold blood. And as far as I know, there were no war crimes trials for those American or Brit soldiers who committed these crimes. They just got away with it. And I have to hand it to the guys that made that documentary, very rarely do you see such honest admissions of the crimes by the Allied soldiers against Germans ever allowed to be put into a publicly available documentary. I can't think of any other documentary that shows accounts like this in such detail. But that doesn't mean it was the official policy of the U.S. or British army to allow murdering of German soldiers. And, in fact, the soldiers in that documentary were sickened by the crimes they saw committed and did not in any way approve of it. So let's have fairness shown to the many decent and honorable soldiers on both sides, not just our side, and not pretend like our side didn't commit it's own grisly crimes, because we did.

Anyhow, if you're interested in ww2 movies and such, there are some good ones out there. Das Boot being one of the best, as has been mentioned, and it's about u-boats, a rare topic for a movie.

[Heinrich505]

Sublime and Wodin,

Winter was an excellent book, one of Deighton's best. Didn't think anyone else knew about it. +1

Heinrich505

[poesel]

poesel71: Who says that it's just Nazi propaganda that the communists wanted to take over and enslave countries in Europe?

I didn't so why bring it up?

The German army vets from WW1 were fighting the communists in the streets between the world wars, as the communists were trying to take over Germany, as well, same as they did in Russia.

That was a (quite violent) political fight between German communists and other German parties. But this was an inner-nation fight - nothing exterior.

The communists took over Russia with a lot of German help (lots of money). Allowing Lenin to transit through Germany was the icing on the cake.

So if anything then Germany attacked Russia with the help(!) of the communists. What right wing propaganda made of it is another thing.

Which was the basis of much where the whole Nazi movement got started in the first place.

The roots of the Nazi movement were anti-semitism and nationalism. Communism came later in the form of the 'Jewish bolsheviks'.

As for the German soldiers, they stated what they knew based on their experience, having lived it.

Do you really believe that they would look sad in the camera and tell how they shot civilians or raped woman? I don't say they did but selective memory is a strong force.

I'm a bit fed up with all that 'good Wehrmacht' blabber. They did commit war crimes and if other nations did more or less doesn't matter.

I'm just waiting for that 'we did just follow orders' argument.

[Badger73]

Ressurcting this thread for all the Newbies who've onboarded in 2014 and 2015.

For what it's worth, Netflix has this available for streaming titled "Generation War" with English subtitles.  Having just watched all three 90 minute episodes, here are my thoughts.

1. I liked it as a decent war drama.
2. Production quality is high; well acted with accurate uniforms, weapons, and vehicles.
3. I think it compares more to HBO's "Pacific" or the "Winds of War" mini-series than to HBO's "Band of Brothers".
4. Whatever revisionism present in the drama seems to exist so that 21st Century viewers like us might better appreciate the "Zeitgeist" of the era.  In this case, giving a modern German audience sympathetic points of reference to understand the initial glamor of the Third Reich as context for confronting the profound tragedies produced.  (The nature of fiction is to tell "The truth within a lie".)

Opinions are like elbows.  Everyone has a couple.  Mine may not align with yours and that's all right. 

Enjoy with popcorn and drink good beer.

 

[Melchior]

What truth did you want them to face? Looked like they covered all the things uncomfortable for the Germans, or anyone else for that matter.

 

Conversely, we literally never see an American TV series about the war confront things like 1943 race riots the Army brutally suppressed. The mass terror bombings of cities, or the rapes and occupation crimes (which the west loves to pin on the Russians).

 

I was afraid the show might be an apologetic face-saving exercise typical of post-war German storytelling too, but winkelried's description makes it sound at least worth a try. I'm not a fan of judging series, movies, or books before attempting to see what they're all about. One might as well just have a book burning. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by CaptHawkeye

[Holien]

I would watch this, very good series IMO and it gives a different POV of which I found useful to stimulate thinking on what would you do if you lived in a society that headed the way Germany headed.

 

We are all humans and act pretty much along same lines, it is just a question of luck (birth) in which society you end up that then forms your frames of reference...

 

Definately worth a watch.

[Melchior]

I've been watching scenes and i'm not seeing the things the critics are whinging about. It does not portray the Nazis flatteringly or Germans as innocent. It's about horrors of the war and hatred. The series addresses Germany's huge mistake in being an enabler of the Nazis and is warning the audience how about easy it is to become an unwitting accomplice in horrific crimes. 

 

TBH some of the things i'm reading now on the internet are utterly blowing my mind in stupidity. Nerds whinged for 20 years that no show portrayed "the German story". They finally get one and it's "omfg glorifies nazis". God forbid a German account of the war should be anything but black and white. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by CaptHawkeye

[LukeFF]

The problem is that movies like Generation War are portraying the Germans of the war years as an innocent people who were forced by Hitler & his gang to go off and fight a war of aggression, and then when things turned bad the world was supposed to have pity on them for the actions they committed. 

 

Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. 

[Melchior]

Except it's not? Their are scenes where the characters are depicted in moral dilemmas and yes sometimes they do the right thing, but ya know, if you actually watch the show you'll see their are scenes where they still do horrible things and become complicit in violent acts without the Nazis around to compel them to it. The show just isn't portraying these guys as universally innocent or guilty. It's not black/white because it really wasn't. 

 

I *strongly* need to emphasize to people to watch the show before they come to any judgement about it. I'm not joking around here. I'm the first person to jump somebody's throat the moment they start spewing the "innocent Germans" drivel. This is not that kind of show. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by CaptHawkeye

[Rebs]

The problem is that movies like Generation War are portraying the Germans of the war years as an innocent people who were forced by Hitler & his gang to go off and fight a war of aggression, and then when things turned bad the world was supposed to have pity on them for the actions they committed. 

 

Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. 

I don't think the series portrays the germans as being "forced by hitler and his gang". Wilhelm goes to war out of sense of duty towards his fatherland, not because he totally just has to. Friedhelm is reluctant, yes but then again: how many US citizen soldiers were a bit reluctant to cross the atlantic ocean and maybe die far away from home fighting the German bloke? You are not supposed to have pity on them because they have done horrible things but rather because the war has changed all of them and their world profoundly, because the world they lived in no longer exist. No matter if the world was based on a big lie by old Adolf or not, it still makes you feel bad. Everything "normal" in your life, destroyed by your own ignorance.