Hate the game

[timmyc69]

Totally baffling. Should have saved the money. Been through the tutorial for crewed weapons about 8 times. Can fire in the training mission but not once in a scenario and I have tried several short scenarios each numerous times. I don't get it...meaning why command control is so confusing. Bad enough you have be a teenager to manipulate the views easily without having to contend with deploying, finding the spotter...if there IS one...just not fun...just frustrating. Now I know why Battleground doesn't allow returns.

[Brindlewolf]

Hey bud,CM has never been very user friendly,The learning curve is huge and very very steep.Once you get to grips with the game and how it works,the game is a buzz,There's a load of stuff on utube-AARs,a two hour tutorial,game features and tactics etc etc.

These games are one of,if not the best of it's genre.Time and patience,patience and more patience are required with the gameplay in these titles.Like i say check utube out there's a wad of stuff on there.

[sburke]

Totally baffling. Should have saved the money. Been through the tutorial for crewed weapons about 8 times. Can fire in the training mission but not once in a scenario and I have tried several short scenarios each numerous times. I don't get it...meaning why command control is so confusing. Bad enough you have be a teenager to manipulate the views easily without having to contend with deploying, finding the spotter...if there IS one...just not fun...just frustrating. Now I know why Battleground doesn't allow returns.

I guess you missed the thread at how old most of us are. I just had to get my reading glasses prescription changed to make em stronger. I actually don't know any game companies that give returns. Could be some, but generally I try to make sure I think I am going to enjoy a game before buying including trying the free demos first.

+1 on what Brindlewolf said

[noob]

Now I know why Battleground doesn't allow returns.

This bit makes me laugh, the statement implies that Battlefront knew people would find it too difficult to play, and consequently there would be a flood of demands for money back, which they would thwart with a no refund policy, this is an understandable rationalisation, given that the alternative, in timmy's subconcious, is that he might be a bit dim, therefore it's easier to believe that BF has hypnotised the CM community to keep on buying, and anticipate buying, an unplayable product

[easytarget]

Stop trolling the guy and instead make suggestions how he improves his game play so he'll enjoy it.

[poesel]

timmyc - if you post a specific problem here I'm sure you will get help. Bonus points for screenshots. A general rant bout how bad the game is will get you nowhere.

The average age here is about 45 and we all spent probably several man days (if not weeks or months) on this game. So you neither need to be a teenager nor is it unplayable.

[noob]

Stop trolling the guy and instead make suggestions how he improves his game play so he'll enjoy it.

He's the troll, look at the title of the thread, and if people with complaints cannot come on and politely make their case instead of raging at BF, i'm going to take the p### out of them.

[easytarget]

Suit yourself, anger in forums is a waste of energy, but you are of course free to rage on as you like, attack me too for calling you out on it if it makes you feel better.

[agusto]

timmyc - if you post a specific problem here I'm sure you will get help.

Oh, actually he was specific about his problems. First of all, he cant figure out how to get his on map indirect fire weapons to fire because he does not understand how the C2 in CMBN works. Secondly, he expressed his discomfort with the camera handling.

Maybe this helps:

Hi, everybody.

First-time-poster here, so a brief introduction of myself for a start:

I am from Germany (the "Ruhr-pocket-area", according to grog-geography) and have been into the series since CMBO. I omitted CMSF and now returned to see the glory of CMx2 in my favourite wargaming-era.

I've become an enthusiastic reader and "refresh-monkey" of this forum since I heard of the nearing release of Battle for Normany, as late as March this year.

I decided to end my lurking days at the prospect of even making the tiniest of contributions on the way to perfection for a game I already grew very fond of.

My observations are based on the full-game version of the demo-scenario "Closing the pocket" (downloaded from the Repository).

I was trying to find a decent defensive layout for the US and encountered some problems in placing my mortar teams. I got curious and played around a bit in setup-phase on both sides.

I did learn quite a few things about how the game handles C2 and spotting for onboard artillery and now want to share my lessons learned.

In the process I also encountered some rather strange aspects of the game mechanics, which are by no means gamebreaking, but kind of inconsistent and maybe worthwhile looking into them.

For further reference, here are the german units I did most of the testing with and will use in examples later on:

CoC-Level 1 - 3. Kompanie HQ (CHQ)

CoC-Level 2 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug HQ (PHQ)

CoC-Level 3 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section HQ (SHQ)

CoC-Level 4 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section / 1st Squad / A Team - Medium Mortar (MS-A)

CoC Level 4 - 3. Kompanie / 4. Zug / 3rd Section / 1st Squad / B Team - Mortar Ammo Bearer (MS-

C2-Basics

The C2 network can be visualized as a tree. In the example above, CHQ is the trunk, PHQ is a branch, SHQ is a twig and MS-A and MS-B are leaves.

There is only one way from any given "leave" to the "trunk"; known as the chain of command.

A unit can establish C2 contact only with a superior HQ within its own specific chain of command.

Missing links can be compensated by HQ units higher up in the same chain of command.

Means of C2-Contact

• Voice C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units can be established up to 50m, regardless of LOS.
  
• Voice C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units cannot be established if one of them is inside a vehicle.
  
• Close C2 visual contact between HQs and subordinate units can be established up to 100m, LOS provided.
  
• Distant visual C2 contact can only be established between HQs and DIRECTLY subordinate units (next in the chain of command) and seems to be limited only by LOS.
  
• Radio C2 contact between HQs and subordinate units seems not to be limited at all; integral radios or radio equipped vehicles provided.
  

Artillery Spotting - Special Rules

• SR-1: Any HQ or FO unit is able to call in indirect fire from any onboard artillery unit inside a radius of 50m, regardless of LOS or C2 contact.
  
• SR-2: Any operational, radio equipped vehicle, whether it is dismounted or occupied, in a radius up to 20m to an onboard artillery unit will enable all HQ or FO units to call in indirect fire from that artillery unit, regardless of LOS or C2 contact.
  
• SR-3: No call for indirect fire will be processed by means of distant visual contact (LOS, +100m), even though it is a viable C2 link.
  

Additional Test Results

• Setup 1: SHQ without integral radio and with no active C2 link is able to call for indirect fire in an radius up to 50M from MS-A.
  
• Setup 2: SHQ inside a radio equipped vehicle is able to call for indirect fire in an radius up to 100M from MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 3: SHQ without integral radio but in voice (up to 50m) or close visual C2 contact (up to 100m) to PHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 4: SHQ without integral radio but in voice (up to 50m) or close visual C2 contact (up to 100m) to CHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 5: PHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A AND SHQ is integrated in the C2 network by any means except distant visual contact (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 6: CHQ is able to call for indirect fire as long as in close visual C2 contact (up to 100M) to MS-A AND SHQ is integrated in the C2 network by any means except distant visual contact (MS-A is available for the whole C2 network).
  
• Setup 7: When distant visual C2 contact (LOS, +100m) is established between SHQ and MS-A (directly superior), neither SHQ nor any higher HQ will be able to call for indirect fire from MS-A (see SR-3), except SR-1 or SR-2 are in effect.
  

Test Summary: As long as C2 contact between all links is established by any means except distant visual contact, all onboard artillery units within that chain of command will be available to every HQ or FO unit on the map.

Possible room for improvement - Inconsistencies (imho)

• Offboard artillery is available to all FO and HQ units regardless of their C2 status.
  
• When SR-2 is in effect, onboard artillery is available to all FO and HQ units regardless of their C2 status.
  
• HQ or FO units out of C2 contact still have access to onboard artillery which is part of another, unbroken chain of command.
  
• The directly superior HQ of an onboard artillery unit, which has no further C2 contact, can only spot for his subordinate unit within a radius of 50m. The moment it establishes C2 contact, this radius is doubled to 100m (Setup 1, 3, 4.)
  
• SR-3 can prohibit indirect fire which would otherwise be legit (Setup 7).
  

Other lessons learned during testing

• There is a short delay in the visual represantation of newly established C2 links (gave me some WTF-moments before I realized that).
  
• Clicking on the icons for the C2 links will bring up the directly superior HQ, even though the represented C2 contact might have been established with an HQ higher up in the chain of command.
  
• Clicking on the unit names in the chain of command (part of the unit info panel) or in the unit/formation report (part of the team info panel for HQs) will bring up that unit or the formations HQ.
  
• While in the support roster, any selected onboard artillery unit and the designated spotter will have their unit icons highlighted and blinking for easy identification.
  

Sorry for the wall of text (I dropped the idea of adding images), but it is a rather complex matter. Hope it will be of any worth for the greater good. Any feedback or question is highly welcome.

Best regards,

RT.

taken from this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=97744&highlight=C2-Basics

Concerning OPs problems with teh camera:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96850

[timmyc69]

I tried a "quick reply" and I don't know what happened to it. I won't go on but to say first of all...I am sorry for upsetting some of you guys. It is true, I see, that the game requires a lot more study and PATIENCE than I have invested so far. "Dim" is one way to put it, but perhaps more accurately, it was my lack of patience including pursuing a rather cursory hacking around with the demo and then jumping to buy it thinking it was just a facelift of the old CMAK. Obviously that was a truly impetuous and bad piece of judgement. In any regard, I see now from all the comments that I have to earn my stripes as you all did, by spending many "man days" hopefully marked by more patience than I have been able to muster up to now (and a lot of that over the "manual"). I especially appreciate the kind comments and the incredible post of AGUSTO.

Again, my sincere apology for upsetting some of you. And thank you.

[noob]

I tried a "quick reply" and I don't know what happened to it. I won't go on but to say first of all...I am sorry for upsetting some of you guys. It is true, I see, that the game requires a lot more study and PATIENCE than I have invested so far. "Dim" is one way to put it, but perhaps more accurately, it was my lack of patience including pursuing a rather cursory hacking around with the demo and then jumping to buy it thinking it was just a facelift of the old CMAK. Obviously that was a truly impetuous and bad piece of judgement. In any regard, I see now from all the comments that I have to earn my stripes as you all did, by spending many "man days" hopefully marked by more patience than I have been able to muster up to now (and a lot of that over the "manual"). I especially appreciate the kind comments and the incredible post of AGUSTO.

Again, my sincere apology for upsetting some of you. And thank you.

Well said timmy, no questioning your intelligence now, we can all spit out the dummy, the saving grace is admitting it, and apologising, i know that, because i was that man

[Pak40]

Timmy, I remember your first post back in November when you were frustrated because you thought there wasn't a manual. You've obviously learned some patience, but with a little more patience and detail about your issues maybe we can help you out so you can enjoy the game that you've spent your hard earned money on. Please answer the follow questions I have about your original post and I'll try to give you the best advice that I can:

Totally baffling. Should have saved the money. Been through the tutorial for crewed weapons about 8 times. Can fire in the training mission but not once in a scenario and I have tried several short scenarios each numerous times.

I'm guessing that you're talking about on board mortars? If so, how are you trying to fire them? Directly or with a spotter through the Artillery interface?

I don't get it...meaning why command control is so confusing.

C&C is really quite simple. It works much like real life WWII command and control. In other words: an officer needs to be in communication with his troops in order to effectively command them, influence morale and leadership etc.

So how does one communicate in the 1940s? A leader can communicate either by voice (more effective) or by visual line of sight to the subordinate units. Voice communication is most effective when within about 50 meters or so, beyond that and both units will need to have radios or be near another unit that has a radio.

Two issues with radios are their unreliability: Sometimes they'll randomly not work, and if the unit is walking or running then they cannot use the radio.

Why all this hassle with C&C? Because it's critical to any combat environment and if you're a serious combat gaming company such as Battlefront, then you'll want to make it as realistic as possible. Proper C&C modeling allows proper combat simulation: for example, if you play the CMFI demo you will see that the Italians had terrible C&C, party due to the lack of any radios and partly due to their command structure within their infantry units. You will see the HUGE advantage that U.S. and British forces had over Italian units.

Bad enough you have be a teenager to manipulate the views easily without having to contend with deploying, finding the spotter...if there IS one...

I'm not sure what you're complaining about here. Are you having trouble manipulating the camera controls?

What do you mean by "finding the spotter...if there IS one.."?

just not fun...just frustrating. Now I know why Battleground doesn't allow returns.

I'm not aware of any independent game company that does allow returns. You're not the first I've seen ask for returns but I can tell you they're rare and that many thousands are very much enjoying CMBN, have bought the add-ons and CMFI. These are the best WWII realistic tactical games on the market. The sales, continued development, and activity on this Forum are proof of that.

[Battlefront.com]

And here I was about to close this up, and while I was answering another post Timmyc69 came back and did what (sadly) too few ranters ever do... recognize there's a better way forward.

Welcome Timmyc69. These guys will take good care of you. They already are. Great bunch! (sniff) Now I'm getting all sentimental.

As others have said, CM always has rewarded players with rich, long term play that goes way beyond what other games can offer. The unfortunately corollary to that equation is a more complicated and initially difficult learning curve compared to other games. We try to keep the curve as shallow as we can, and we always can do more in that area, but in the end it either grabs you enough to get over the hump or it doesn't.

Steve

[Macisle]

Here's a link to the best starter tutorial out there:

Be sure to hit "Show more" to see the time links by topic.

It is version 1, so if you have v2, some things may be a little different. Most of it still applies, though.

As others have said, it takes time and effort to learn the game, but the rewards are great if you do.

[Duckman]

Oh, actually he was specific about his problems. First of all, he cant figure out how to get his on map indirect fire weapons to fire because he does not understand how the C2 in CMBN works. Secondly, he expressed his discomfort with the camera handling.

Maybe this helps: [tons of info]

Interesting stuff. It reinforces my view that you should focus on the big picture and not worry too much about minutiae, i.e. make sure units are "sort of close enough" and they will have C2.

The beauty of the game is that it has the pieces - fairly common-sense C2 and spotting, good-to-great TAC AI, and some other bits and pieces - to let you just play the game provided you have a working knowledge of tactics and computer games. In other words it lets me do what a real company or battalion commander should, which is

- formulate a general plan

- manage reserves

- direct heavy weapons and indirect fire

This is quite different from games that make you play as rules lawyer or squad leader because the game has to be micromanaged to work (some people still do this voluntarily, but that's another issue).

[John Kettler]

timmyc69,

You are by no means the only person to rip his hair out in frustration trying to "port" CMx1 skills to CMx2. I had a terrible time and a very nearly vertical learning curve. Several times in playing one CMBN Demo scenario, no matter I did I had half of my mortars out of command. Sometimes, it was all because the bombardment got the working one!

Perhaps you'll find my thread on learning CMBN of some use. At the very least, it should provide some small consolation!

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105379

Regards,

John Kettler

[Doug Williams]

Totally baffling. Should have saved the money. Been through the tutorial for crewed weapons about 8 times. Can fire in the training mission but not once in a scenario and I have tried several short scenarios each numerous times. I don't get it...meaning why command control is so confusing. Bad enough you have be a teenager to manipulate the views easily without having to contend with deploying, finding the spotter...if there IS one...just not fun...just frustrating. Now I know why Battleground doesn't allow returns.

I'm 46.

Like others said, the learning curve is a bit steep, but if you stick with it you will be rewarded with an exceptional WW2 tactical gaming experience. I would suggest trying the Platoon Patrol scenario until you get the hang of infantry movement and learn to use that single on board mortar. Then move on to other tiny or small scenarios.

[Vinnart]

Timmyc69, as you are realizing CM is a complex game that takes PATEINECE, practice and learning to master. We were all new to CMx2 at one point just as you, and have gone through the growing pains to now be veterans. Some people pick up on it faster than others, but here are some tips I recommend when diving into the game:

SINGLE MISSIONS

Start with the single player missions. DO NOT jump into the campaigns.

Consider single player missions your training. Form plans then execute. If a turn goes bad, reload it and try again with a different tactic. Learn from what you did wrong, and learn from what turned out good. Experiment by trying different things with advice from the forum for tactics. I would start in basic training level, and move on to veteran as soon as possible. Don’t worry about moving beyond veteran for now. Veteran is a good level to play at that is more like the rest with sighting.

CAIMPAGNS

Once you have gone through the single missions you should be more seasoned, and can try a campaign. DO NOT do “Courage and Fortitude” first. DO the German campaign, as it is much easier.

PBEM

Game day! This is what you have been training for, and where the game shines the most. There are no do overs, and you are going against real intelligent beings. Play a few games against someone who will be willing to train you as you play letting you know what mistakes you made. You will probably lose at first, but look at it as part of learning.

Like a real troop you must be willing to train, train, and train some more to get good. Eventually you will be the one replying to a post like this as a veteran helping a newbie who had the same problems you did.

Good luck! This is a good community with many experienced players that will help you earn your stripes. Just search for answers, and if you cannot find the answer ask and the vets will help you. Remember the greater the challenge, the greater the reward. Hang in there.

[womble]

SINGLE MISSIONS

Start with the single player missions. DO NOT jump into the campaigns.

Consider single player missions your training. Form plans then execute. If a turn goes bad, reload it and try again with a different tactic. Learn from what you did wrong, and learn from what turned out good. Experiment by trying different things with advice from the forum for tactics. I would start in basic training level, and move on to veteran as soon as possible. Don’t worry about moving beyond veteran for now. Veteran is a good level to play at that is more like the rest with sighting.

Apart from two things, this is especially good advice. Don't expect to roflstomp your first few games like you can in some games (partly because they offer you a guided route further into the game, so early games are artificially easy). Also, note that if you're still in CMBN v1.x, the scenarios are just listed in alphabetical order, and the first one is a stone bitch.

The two things I'd differ from Vinnart on? First, I'd suggest using QBs as your training ground, rather than scenarios, because scenarios have secrets that you can only discover once. Second, I'd say go to Warrior from Basic Training, because the timings are closer to "realistic" and they apply to both you and the AI; in BT and Vet, sometimes the AI getting faster on-call artillery can actually make getting to grips with the game harder, since you get less chance to bug out from under suspected strikes.

[agusto]

Interesting stuff. It reinforces my view that you should focus on the big picture and not worry too much about minutiae, i.e. make sure units are "sort of close enough" and they will have C2.

I agree with you on that matter. Many people probably try to hard to understand exactly how the game works instead of just doing what seems intuitively logical. Would a certain action make sense in real life? If not, than it s likely to be not a good idea in the game too. Thats a good rule of the thumb, IMO.

DO the German campaign, as it is much easier.

Of the stock german campaigns that come with the CW module i found KG Engel to be pretty hard to beat. I never managed it to win first battle of the geoffrey forest (the one where you get the Tiger 2 and then must to delay that huge allied assault till dusk.) althoough i tried it 2 times before i moved on to the next battle. I inflicted horrible casualties upon the allies, though, and i learned something about setting up a defense in depth.

timmyc69,

Place the HQ of your mortars next to them (all HQs in CMBN have radios and all mortars have HQs) and then you can use any other unit that has a radio (ie all other HQs, FOs and XO teams) for calling in a fire mission.

[womble]

...you can use any other unit that has a radio (ie all other HQs, FOs and XO teams) for calling in a fire mission.

It's not the radio that makes a unit eligible for calling fire. It's a permission inherent to the individual in that team with the privilege. If an HQ's radio is lost, the leader can still call in a strike. If the leader is killed, the HQ can no longer call a strike. Some vehicles have radios but no ability to spot for Arty. In FI, most Italian HQs don't have radios but can still call artillery, even the "Squadra" HQs.

[c3k]

It helps to get the right mind-set. Try to imagine yourself as the commander on the field. Where should you locate yourself to have the best influence over your troops? If you pick the chateau 2 miles back, well, your troops will not act in a coordinated manner. Get up there. Similarly, try the same imagining with each HQ. Keep units in the same formation near one another and near their HQ.

If you've never served in the military, you may have misperceptions about how difficult it can be to coordinate the actions of a hundred or more men out in the woods and fields. The military makes it seem easy. It is not. It takes command and control. That requires communication.

Pay attention to the face/small man/ear/radio command icons at the bottom of the unit UI. (See the manual.) Look at the chain of command links at the bottom left corner of the UI. If there are any red "x"es then that link is broken.

The C^3 aspects of the game are incredibly detailed, mimicking real-life. They are critical to getting the most out of your troops.

Specific, small questions can and will be answered very quickly and easily. A broad, "what do I do" is hard to work with.

Keep at it. You'll love it.

Ken

Edited to add: DEFINITELY start by playing WeGo. RealTime (RT) can force a tempo which is hard to keep up with if you're not totally comfortable with the camera controls and unit toggles.

[agusto]

It's not the radio that makes a unit eligible for calling fire. It's a permission inherent to the individual in that team with the privilege. If an HQ's radio is lost, the leader can still call in a strike. If the leader is killed, the HQ can no longer call a strike. Some vehicles have radios but no ability to spot for Arty. In FI, most Italian HQs don't have radios but can still call artillery, even the "Squadra" HQs.

That is true, i know that. However in my last post i said that doing what seems intuitively logical IRL will be likely to produce a satisfying outcome ingame and having a C2 setup as i described it does in general match that previous statement of mine. It did in fact raise a little questionmark above my head when i noticed that HQs that are apartently have no radios are capable of calling in off-map arty strikes, only when i figured out that runners and similar means of communication may be abstracted that started to make some sense. Besides that, all HQ units that have radios also do have arty priviledges if leader is alive, so my statement in the previous post was true, even if it did not mention some special cases where arty can be called although the spotting unit does not have a radio.

[baron Jacquinot]

Totally baffling. Should have saved the money. Been through the tutorial for crewed weapons about 8 times. Can fire in the training mission but not once in a scenario and I have tried several short scenarios each numerous times. I don't get it...meaning why command control is so confusing. Bad enough you have be a teenager to manipulate the views easily without having to contend with deploying, finding the spotter...if there IS one...just not fun...just frustrating. Now I know why Battleground doesn't allow returns.

I think you need play Theatre of War first, after it this game will be very easy to play :-)

[Kuderian]

Hi timmyc69,

Like Brindlewolf said, CM:BN does have a steep learning curve, especially if you have not played any of the previous series but persevere, because we did and and it was well worth it

As soon as you have found your legs, play some h2h pbem's and let the party start!