buildings Buildings & HE / Mods and other stuff.

[Apache]

Well finally got some time to return to the CM arena.  Travelling around a lot so not close to my desktop with CMBN much but run a Mac laptop 'on tour' and am pleased to see CMFB runs really well.

Firstly, brilliant game!!!!  Easily the most polished in the whole CM arena IMHO and I have quite a few, right back to the first CM.  I mean, the atmos that shots like below create for me  (mind you, I had to move the FO from there early on, lost them a few times - why is it ALWAYS the darned observers / commanders that get the unlucky bullet LOL - few times I went back to the FO only to see 'DENIED', and of course he'd bought it).   Stunning really.  I like CMBS too, great range of kit there, just too much AT around in that game for my liking.  Couple of well placed AT assets in that can really ruin your day (and for me hunting them down is kinda less interesting), whereas in CMFB your'e lucky if an ATG survives long unless you hide or haul ass ASAP after firing.  Both demonstrative of RL, but I like WWII RL more LOL

Couple of issues / questions (not complaints!!!) I need to clarify:

1. Buildings and HE.  Wow!, do the buildings seem resilient!!  Not sure if they are supposed to be that way?  I guess there might be buildings of differing resilience or does the type/size affect it?  As an example, I played the 3rd scenario in the Training Campaign (where my stand-off and survive tactics for the infantry worked but gave me the unenviable task of trying to dig the Germans out of the village they were thus able to occupy - I wanted as much infantry in tact for the next scenario) so I ended up shelling the row of four buildings that extend to the left horizontally as you look into town from back in the US side.  Jeez, I must have pumped 20 HE into each building (or at least it felt like it, I cut off 'Target' after two turns to avoid blowing my whole HE inventory), result ? - damage only!!!  Huh??  I'd expect that after 5 shots. After 10 I'd have thought they'd be down.  Maybe even after 5-8.  Thought I'd seen a thread about HE and buildings somewhere, maybe CMBS, but can't find it now.
2. For me, on the Mac, Alt-Tab doesn't return me to desktop.  It might be something to do with how my laptop is set up with using swipe between pages / screens on the toucpad??).
3. At times I really like the movie mode, too much snow though and it's a bit too close to B&W for me, maybe just my machine though.
4. This maybe something I remember wrongly but dismounting from vehicles (now it might work differently in CMFB than BS) BUT IIRC in CMBB if you wanted to dismount a passenger in one turn you could give the vehicle a move order, give it a pause waypoint, give the passenger a move order, and the vehicle another move order which it would execute AFTER the pause (e.g. after the passengers had got off).  In CMBS however I got caught out loads of times telling the Stinger transport to move, pause, give the stinger crew time to dismount, then drive on - only to check 3 turns later that the vehicle was driving off into the sunset with the stinger team still on board!!!!  Argghhhhhh!!!! Maybe I remember it wrong or it's changed from earlier games?  I just thought that giving passengers a move order, they'd execute it as soon as the vehicle stopped or paused long enough, or CAN it actually work like that but just I'm just doing it wrong?
5. Might be worth updating the manual to reflect that preparatory bombardments are ONLY available in attack scenarios.  I spent a fair bit of time hunting round for it in the CMFB manual and online after and I couldn't even see how to do it, let alone when you could.  Or it may just be that the info is there but that my PDF reader app searcher isn't up to it.
6. Any recommended mods, campaigns or scenarios to DL.  I have Juju's UI (a must have for me), I'm trying the HQS 2.5 sound mod (not sure about that TBH, many of them are great (although I wish I could put back the stock intro music as an option) but I needed a break from "Did you see that?".  I think the mod from CMBN was AKD, would that work with CMFB?  I've seen folks say the AKD mod from CMBS would work but of course there'd be no 'Garand ping' in that. There was a great radio chatter mod for CMBN IIRC, not sure if that would work?  Also got the Aris terrain mod which I mostly prefer I think.  I like the USA no greatcoat mod too.  Not doing TOO many vehicle mods this time around (I think I wasted half my time on CM/CMBB and even CMBN modding it, not playing, and it's not like CMFB needs much - unless there's any must haves  

Anyway.  Thanks BF for a great game!!

Edited October 31, 2016 by Apache
Typos

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, Apache said:

I wanted as much infantry in tact for the next scenario) so I ended up shelling the row of four buildings that extend to the left horizontally as you look into town from back in the US side.  Jeez, I must have pumped 20 HE into each building (or at least it felt like it, I cut off 'Target' after two turns to avoid blowing my whole HE inventory), result ? - damage only!!!  Huh??  I'd expect that after 5 shots. After 10 I'd have thought they'd be down.  Maybe even after 5-8.  Thought I'd seen a thread about HE and buildings somewhere

I've often commented on how HE seems to be causing too little structural damage (in one game I saw a 105mm artillery shell hit a wooden countryside fence straight on without any damage), and it seems to me that we need much too much HE to even scratch buildings or knock a hole in the roof.

However: You don't need to knock visible holes in buildings to kill the troops inside. Often, 2-3 hits from a 75mm gun will be sufficient to clear a floor, and even 37mm is plenty effective if you give it a few more shots.

You just need to remember that enemy troops will often evacuate quickly, often moving down one floor, so if you only hit the upper floor, expect to find survivors on the ground level.

[A Canadian Cat]

11 hours ago, Apache said:

Buildings and HE.  Wow!, do the buildings seem resilient!!  Not sure if they are supposed to be that way?  I guess there might be buildings of differing resilience or does the type/size affect it?  

I am sure the way it is is intentional.  As you see some people think its not quite right.  I have no real idea but in general the bigger the building the more it will take to bring it down.  The skin of the building is not really a factor though even though you could reasonably think that the same building with brick would be harder to destroy than one that looked like it was made of wood  but that is not the case.

 

11 hours ago, Apache said:

As an example, I played the 3rd scenario in the Training Campaign (where my stand-off and survive tactics for the infantry worked but gave me the unenviable task of trying to dig the Germans out of the village they were thus able to occupy - I wanted as much infantry in tact for the next scenario) so I ended up shelling the row of four buildings that extend to the left horizontally as you look into town from back in the US side.  Jeez, I must have pumped 20 HE into each building (or at least it felt like it, I cut off 'Target' after two turns to avoid blowing my whole HE inventory), result ? - damage only!!! 

How many Shermans were firing? They can only get 3-4 shots away each turn so multiple buildings and 20HE hits per building in two turns would be five Sherman tanks per building.  Could be but I'm going to guess there were quite a bit fewer HE hits per building

 

11 hours ago, Apache said:

This maybe something I remember wrongly but dismounting from vehicles (now it might work differently in CMFB than BS) BUT IIRC in CMBB if you wanted to dismount a passenger in one turn you could give the vehicle a move order, give it a pause waypoint, give the passenger a move order, and the vehicle another move order which it would execute AFTER the pause (e.g. after the passengers had got off).  In CMBS however I got caught out loads of times telling the Stinger transport to move, pause, give the stinger crew time to dismount, then drive on - only to check 3 turns later that the vehicle was driving off into the sunset with the stinger team still on board!!!!  Argghhhhhh!!!! Maybe I remember it wrong or it's changed from earlier games?  I just thought that giving passengers a move order, they'd execute it as soon as the vehicle stopped or paused long enough, or CAN it actually work like that but just I'm just doing it wrong?

Yeah that is not how it works.  When you have passengers in a vehicle their move orders only happen once the vehicle stops and has no more move orders. This is so that a convoy of vehicles can be given pause orders to control the convoy and not have troops dismounting along the road.  With mounting and dismount of passengers you can:

1. Set a pause at the beginning of a vehicle move and order passengers to embark into the vehicle.  As long as the passengers start loading before the pause runs out the vehicle will wait for them to load and the proceed along its move orders.
2. For a vehicle with no move orders give the passengers a dismount order and then give both the vehicle and the passengers move orders and the vehicle will wait until they passengers dismount before both move off on their move orders.
3. I hear it is also supposed to be possible to have a vehicle have some move orders and a pause at one way point followed by more move orders and have passengers who are near the way point with the pause be given an embark order and the vehicle will allow the passengers to load at that way point with the pause and continue on only after the passengers are loaded.

Personally I have had options 3 go terribly wrong so I usually just stick with options 1 or 2.

 

 

11 hours ago, Apache said:

Might be worth updating the manual to reflect that preparatory bombardments are ONLY available in attack scenarios.  I spent a fair bit of time hunting round for it in the CMFB manual and online after and I couldn't even see how to do it, let alone when you could.  Or it may just be that the info is there but that my PDF reader app searcher isn't up to it.

This I don't quite follow this question: there is nothing in the game that prevents assigning artillery to barrages during the setup for any side in any game.

 

[Apache]

Thanks both.  

@ BP After today I tend to agree and think I might have to rethink my use of HE.  The problem in this case was I actually wanted to demolish the buildings so I could target the buildings on the other side of the street.

@ Ian, have to disagree on the Sherman ROF for HE I'm afraid.  It's around 7 per minute.  So the guess is wrong .  2 turns, per tank, 14 rounds each.  Each of three tanks targeting 3 identical houses.  Ran a few tests on it today (mainly as I like to have a better idea of what different weapons might be able to achieve against different targets), not enough to call it scientific but targeting a fairly big house with just one Sherman and it was still only badly damaged, not down in rubble after 50 rounds of HE.  50!!!!  I'm no tank or military munitions expert but just seeing footage of tanks in WWII I can't see many small office blocks / factories still standing after 50 rounds of HE, let alone a house. 8 OK, 10 at a push, but not 50.  Maybe it needs to be like that because of factors I'm not aware of but I'll sure have SIGNIFICANTLY dial down my expectations of HE in game and how, at such seemingly limited effectiveness, how  I might even use it! 

I thought I'd got the pause / move thing wrong.  I think it was with CMSF that I did a lot of advancing IFVs, while they targeted buildings, stick on pause then have the infantry dismount and assault. But as you say, that's not, move, pause, dismount, move again.

I was unclear about the bombardments in set up phase.  I was referring to delayed fire missions.  I'm not sure if they are labelled as prep bombardment as opposed to fire support but in scenarios other than meeting engagements (and I think maybe probes??) you used to get the option to select prep bombardment and could dial in a delay of 5, 10 or 15 mins.  Not possible in MEs (like Training Mission - scen 3).  At least as far as I can see.  You can set instant 'on target' fire support requests only.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Apache

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, Apache said:

@ BP After today I tend to agree and think I might have to rethink my use of HE.  The problem in this case was I actually wanted to demolish the buildings so I could target the buildings on the other side of the street

It depends a lot on the building type too. Barns are much easier to knock down, and the small garden shed types you can even demolish by 50 cal fire.

Which is maybe also somewhat unrealistic, as I think those bullets would just pass through thin wooden boards and leave lots of individual holes. Of course with enough holes, there's not much shed left, but that would be a lot of ammo.

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, Apache said:

Maybe it needs to be like that because of factors I'm not aware of but I'll sure have SIGNIFICANTLY dial down my expectations of HE in game and how, at such seemingly limited effectiveness, how  I might even use it! 

While HE is strangely weak for physically knocking structures down, it still works just fine for killing enemies.

A thing many players seem to miss is that cover also depends a lot on range. Enemies in houses, in trenches, and behind low walls are not so difficult to kill with rifles if you can get close to them (less than 200m, preferably less than 100m), but at longer ranges they can be very difficult to shift. HE works at any range.

[Apache]

Yah, accept that, it's just the seemingly total ineffectiveness of HE against buildings even the size of houses.  It may well be that HE is great in many other situations, but against houses, the results just seem odd to say the least and certainly a tactical limitation.  No a massive problem, sure it can be worked round, don't need to do it TOO often.  Just interested as to why it's so weak against houses and whether that weakness is replicated against any other target types.

[Bulletpoint]

8 hours ago, Apache said:

Just interested as to why it's so weak against houses and whether that weakness is replicated against any other target types.

In CMBN it seems to be weak against everything. My pet peeve is the nearly indestructible hedgerows, which you won't have to worry about in CMFB

The effectiveness of artillery against troops in the open has also been dialled down, some say it's to balance things since the game has troops bunching up more than in real life.

I even have a savegame showing 150mm artillery airburst directly above two scouts. Result: One of them was lightly wounded. They were my own scouts, but still I thought it was a bit odd...

Edited November 1, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[c3k]

Houses in Normandy were famously hard. These were smallish structures with a LOT of THICK stone walls and small windows. Modern building techniques pale in comparison to how well those structures we built. Yes, we're more "efficient" now. Or forefathers built much more inefficient but sturdier houses.

50 HE? Hmm. That's a lot.

Offices and factories were less robust than the Norman farmhouses. The Ardennes region had similar structures as Normandy. Old structures were very strong. Newer ones, less so. (Brick is easier to demolish, for example.)

Think of how well the internal walls of the Stalingrad factories held up. Those were built "inefficiently" but were massively thick (masonry?) to support the various industrial tool requirements.

I'm not saying the game has it right. Nor am I saying the game has it wrong.  

Ken

[MOS:96B2P]

20 hours ago, Apache said:

@ BP After today I tend to agree and think I might have to rethink my use of HE.  The problem in this case was I actually wanted to demolish the buildings so I could target the buildings on the other side of the street.

<Snip>

I was unclear about the bombardments in set up phase.  I was referring to delayed fire missions.  I'm not sure if they are labelled as prep bombardment as opposed to fire support but in scenarios other than meeting engagements (and I think maybe probes??) you used to get the option to select prep bombardment and could dial in a delay of 5, 10 or 15 mins.  Not possible in MEs (like Training Mission - scen 3).  At least as far as I can see.  You can set instant 'on target' fire support requests only.

In general the bigger the building the stronger it is.  A  combination of a buildings height and footprint (total square footage) determines how much incoming HE before it collapses.  Troops inside the building may be KIA or driven out long before the larger buildings collapse.  The type of building also plays a role.  IMO the following is true:                      

Very Strong: Three biggest churches

Strong:  Modular buildings and the independent small church.

Average; Independent houses, independent commercial and independent other (CMBN & CMFB have "other")

Weak: Independent barns. 

Within the four above categories the square footage comes into play.  Example: In general a small independent commercial will collapse before a larger independent commercial.    

As for fire support, I think only off map artillery/mortars have the delay option including during set up.  Could this be the problem?  

   

[A Canadian Cat]

22 hours ago, Apache said:

@ Ian, have to disagree on the Sherman ROF for HE I'm afraid.  It's around 7 per minute.  So the guess is wrong .  2 turns, per tank, 14 rounds each.  Each of three tanks targeting 3 identical houses.  

Oops I stand corrected then. As your tests showed, with 50HE hits and the houses still standing (yikes), your impression of the amount of HE used was much closer than my thoughts on the matter.

 

22 hours ago, Apache said:

I was unclear about the bombardments in set up phase.  I was referring to delayed fire missions.  I'm not sure if they are labelled as prep bombardment as opposed to fire support but in scenarios other than meeting engagements (and I think maybe probes??) you used to get the option to select prep bombardment and could dial in a delay of 5, 10 or 15 mins.  Not possible in MEs (like Training Mission - scen 3).  At least as far as I can see.  You can set instant 'on target' fire support requests only.

Humm that seems off. There is not supposed to be anything special about the type of game with regard to how the fire support settings are handled.  The only differences is that during setup you can setup a mission anywhere on the map while once the game starts you can only request a mission that your spotter has LOS for.

[Apache]

17 hours ago, IanL said:

Oops I stand corrected then. As your tests showed, with 50HE hits and the houses still standing (yikes), your impression of the amount of HE used was much closer than my thoughts on the matter.

 

Humm that seems off. There is not supposed to be anything special about the type of game with regard to how the fire support settings are handled.  The only differences is that during setup you can setup a mission anywhere on the map while once the game starts you can only request a mission that your spotter has LOS for.

Yah.  But if you check an Attack scenario (I think that's it's name type, or is it Assault) you'll see that in the set up stage, when you are running down the options for a setup phase arty strike, you'll get the opportunity to delay by 5, 10 or 15 mins.  With the Training Mission there is no such option.  It's Immediate only with arrival within 1-3 mins.  No delays can be dialled in.  However, that mission uses on-map mortars only at the setup phase.  So, as has been suggested it MAY be dependant on the arty type.  But I suspect it's because it's a mission type restriction.  You'd be unlikely to dial in a delayed arty prep bombardment in a meeting engagement.

Managed to bring down a building with about 8 rounds of HE yesterday.  But I think it was a farm shack / barn type place.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Apache

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Apache said:

Managed to bring down a building with about 8 rounds of HE yesterday.  But I think it was a farm shack / barn type place.

Yeah the barns are made of cardboard, never take cover in one. They look like they are made of some kind of stone, but they act in the game as classical American wooden barns.

[Apache]

Indeed LOL.  And....just when I thought I had this scenario boxed off, the FO team deliver a heavy linear barrage about 100m too short.  Aaaargghh!!!!  First few options I tried they were spot on.  Think it maybe because this time he was in a building with other troop involved in a firefight.

[NeoOhm]

"fix" for alt tab on both PC and Mac = have a browser window or some other window, like a folder minimized in the background before you start the game, then you can alt tab.
if not, on pc, i usually use ctrl-alt-del to get a window up so i can alt tab


Question about Wooden areas and artillery, what is best, Personal  or General shells - to kill dismounted or soft targets - how much do wodds protect?

Any charts of ammo damage, range etc for cmsf?

Edited November 19, 2018 by NeoOhm

[Bulletpoint]

On 10/31/2016 at 4:15 AM, Apache said:

Buildings and HE.  Wow!, do the buildings seem resilient!!  Not sure if they are supposed to be that way?  I guess there might be buildings of differing resilience or does the type/size affect it?  As an example, I played the 3rd scenario in the Training Campaign (where my stand-off and survive tactics for the infantry worked but gave me the unenviable task of trying to dig the Germans out of the village they were thus able to occupy - I wanted as much infantry in tact for the next scenario) so I ended up shelling the row of four buildings that extend to the left horizontally as you look into town from back in the US side.  Jeez, I must have pumped 20 HE into each building (or at least it felt like it, I cut off 'Target' after two turns to avoid blowing my whole HE inventory), result ? - damage only!!!  Huh??  I'd expect that after 5 shots. After 10 I'd have thought they'd be down.  Maybe even after 5-8.  Thought I'd seen a thread about HE and buildings somewhere, maybe CMBS, but can't find it now.

Yeah the buildings are way too resilient. I'm playing a game right now where my opponent fired three 150mm howitzer shells directly at a building without even causing scratches. It was  a big building, so I didn't expect it to collapse, but at least a wall should be blown out.

However, when he fired on a tall free-standing wall, one hit made a huge hole in it, as expected. So either tall walls are too weak against big HE, or buildings way too strong.

(another point is that he also fired a quad flak gun at a similar building, and two bursts of 37mm flak removed one of the building walls, which is about what I would expect. So the issue seems mostly to be with big HE guns that fire single shots)

Edited November 20, 2018 by Bulletpoint

[Erwin]

The other issue with buildings is that the first wall stops all shells - there does not appear to be any way of shooting larger caliber stuff through a building to affect troops hiding behind the far (2nd) wall in ambush.  And that makes those kinds of ambushes very deadly - perhaps more so than in RL.  

[Warts 'n' all]

I never have trouble knocking buildings down to reveal what is hiding behind, IF I hit them face on. 

[RockinHarry]

Haven´t read through all of the thread, but I think the lack of more visual damage levels is oftentimes misleading. Does anybody know the treshold for when a wall and roofs look damaged/blown out? My previous experiences with indirect HE vs buildings was a rather weird one. It appeared that buidlings shelled with indirect artillery HE were rather brought down by blowing out the lower and lowest walls with near misses and not with anything hitting the buildings directly. Horizontal blast effects appear unrealistically increased sometimes when it comes to bringing down walls on the opposite side of buildings. It could be simple near misses on a building and bringing down stuff beyond (blast funnels straight THROUGH the building), but also sometimes ordnance that (should) have little blast effects at all. My favourite example was some rifle grenade (or Schreck round) aimed at some enemy personal behind a mod building window, killing 2-3 guys and the blast bringing down a wall in a neighboring action spot outside the building. So the blast force appeared to not consider anything of an obstacle like a building or a wall is. Maybe somebody else noticed weird stuff like that happen? Haven´t tested with V4 much yet IIRC most those observations were pre V4.

[Erwin]

22 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I never have trouble knocking buildings down to reveal what is hiding behind, IF I hit them face on. 

One rarely has enuff ammo to level every building just to see  what is on the other side.  And what if there are "Preserve" points on those buildings?  My point is that this is one of the areas where the CM2 system breaks down.  In RL, most small arms and certainly 50 cal and larger would penetrate a couple of walls and hit or suppress enemy behind the 2nd wall, making that sort of ambush less or non-effective.  In the game, hiding inf behind the 2nd wall of a building is a deadly ambush tactic.

[Bulletpoint]

20 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Maybe somebody else noticed weird stuff like that happen?

HE modelling seems a weak point in the game, which is a shame because it does such a good job of modelling ballistics etc. Basically it seems HE just subtracts an amount of hitpoints from all buildings in range, no matter what might be in between, and when HP drop to zero, structures collapse.

[JoMac]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 12:34 AM, Erwin said:

One rarely has enuff ammo to level every building just to see  what is on the other side.  And what if there are "Preserve" points on those buildings?  My point is that this is one of the areas where the CM2 system breaks down.  In RL, most small arms and certainly 50 cal and larger would penetrate a couple of walls and hit or suppress enemy behind the 2nd wall, making that sort of ambush less or non-effective.  In the game, hiding inf behind the 2nd wall of a building is a deadly ambush tactic.

Never paid attention to this, but are you saying HE/Small Arms hitting front of building doesn't Suppress\KO Troops touching outside of far side of said building ?..I figured  troops would've at least still get Suppressed due to being within the 1-2 Action Spots of HE/Small Arms...Hmm, this sounds disconcerting :-(

Edited November 24, 2018 by JoMc67

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Just checked .50cal in CM:SF1.....It actually demolishes light buildings before having serious suppressive effect on teams positioned on their far side.

I'm actually a bit surprised by that.....Going to repeat the test in CM:A & CM:BS now.

[NeoOhm]

On 11/24/2018 at 7:32 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Just checked .50cal in CM:SF1.....It actually demolishes light buildings before having serious suppressive effect on teams positioned on their far side.

I'm actually a bit surprised by that.....Going to repeat the test in CM:A & CM:BS now.

Look behind the house, then you see alot of the rounds penetrate if you have AP

[Erwin]

But, the rounds have little or no effect on inf behind the building - one has to demolish the building in order to shoot at those inf.