I miss my infantry.....

[Highlander40]

In CMX1, infantry ruled.  Cheap and lethal against tanks up close.  Great ability to spot and somewhat stealthy.

 

I am playing my first multiplayer battle in CM2 (Black Sea).  It is shocking how weak infantry is in this game.  They get tired very easily and don't seem to recover quickly.  They seem less stealthy than tanks even when they approach the tanks from the sides and rear.  They also die in heaps vs. tanks as RPG's don't do well vs. APS.  And that body armor that they wear does not seem to work all that well!

 

While it is certainly true that the modern battlefield is a more dangerous place than in WW2, the pendulum may have swung over a bit too far!

 

[Melchior]

"In CMX1, infantry ruled.  Cheap and lethal against tanks up close."

 

Sounds to me like "overpowered against tanks". Listen I hate to break it to you, but realistically an encounter with an armored vehicle is a pretty frightening experience. Your reply options are limited, the tank's aren't. Just because it's at a disadvantage in some environments doesn't mean it should ever be treated as a cakewalk. Literally the only people i've ever seen who think that are way are internet forumites. Calling upon the vast and varied experience of their long days as denizens of the military history community. 

 

"They seem less stealthy than tanks even when they approach the tanks from the sides and rear."

 

Duh. Countries mount literally the best optical equipment they produce on MBTs. It's not inaccurate for tank to be very good at spotting in this era. How many soldiers carry 20x zoom thermal scopes/w range finders I wonder? 

[womble]

In CMX1, infantry ruled.  Cheap and lethal against tanks up close.  Great ability to spot and somewhat stealthy.

 

I am playing my first multiplayer battle in CM2 (Black Sea).  It is shocking how weak infantry is in this game.  They get tired very easily and don't seem to recover quickly.  They seem less stealthy than tanks even when they approach the tanks from the sides and rear.  They also die in heaps vs. tanks as RPG's don't do well vs. APS.  And that body armor that they wear does not seem to work all that well!

 

While it is certainly true that the modern battlefield is a more dangerous place than in WW2, the pendulum may have swung over a bit too far!

C21st tanks see out better, across a wider spectrum than WW2 tanks did. Infantry in the WW2 titles is deadly to tanks in the environments where it should be, when it's properly employed; tanks in urban and forested terrain without infantry escort are pretty much dead meat. If you're just coming to CMx2 with the Black Sea release, you have a twofold disconnect to overcome: the way things work in CMx2 vs how they used to work in x1, combined with the massive difference that the modern environment makes. Even transferring x1 to x2 in the same time period throws a lot of experienced players. Javelin ATGM will ruin any MBT's day from ranges far exceeding and with much greater certainty than the capabilities of Shreck or Zook. The proliferation of one-shot MANPAT is way past what you see in WW2. MBTs are a lot better protected against such weapons this decade than they were two decades ago, though. So it might well be that the infantry's role has changed, and nowadays you have to swarm the ADS and reactive armour blocks with myriad sparkling RPG hits, rather than having a single well-flung PanzerWurfMine or serene Rifle Grenade suffice.

Battlefield dynamics change; embrace the fact that the simulation has the fidelity to reflect differences. And it's probably a mistake to assume that the old game was more accurate/true-to-life, either; I expect BFC know a lot more about the period now than they did 15 years ago.

[MikeyD]

I remember when CMx2 first moved from CMSF to CMBN. The move away from modern body armor to WWII was readily apparent, the guys had much better stamina, very much harder to exhaust. Fighting in your shirtsleeves is considerably less burdensome. All those fancy missiles, rockets, grenade launchers, body armor and communications gear takes its toll. My one piece of advice is to resist the temptation to max out your men on acquireables, especially if they're going to have to cover a lot of ground on foot afterward.

Edited February 23, 2015 by MikeyD

[Mord]

I don't know, I think I worry more about infantry now than in CM WWII. You figure a single squad probably packs 5X the punch of a Stuart. Death can come from anywhere in this game. Javs can reach out from huge distances and piss in your Cheerios. Spotters can bring in silent death while never having to come close to the enemy. RPGs have a decent enough range (1000 m) that I am really paranoid about where they might be lurking. I am learning not to take any unit for granted in Black Sea especially infantry. I think mostly you just need to get used to them and the differences in the technologies. Give it five or six games and you'll probably find that sweet spot between aggression and stealth

 

 

Mord.

[JoMac]

Well, I don't play post WWII or ever care to...

 

To Highlanders post, I do think the Infantry and Armor in CMx1 was done right, but now Infantry Rule in the CMx2 WWII Titles ( especially when playing Turn-Based ). This is, because Armor is made harder to spot Inf, and Armor has little or no chance to react against Infantry in same turn. The only chance Armor has, is to constantly move with several Way-Points in the same turn, and just hope you don't run into Infantry 2-3 Action Spots away...Your best bet with Armor is to play it in Real-Time.

 

Joe

Edited February 24, 2015 by JoMc67

[Macisle]

The only chance Armor has, is to constantly move with several Way-Points in the same turn, and just hope you don't run into Infantry 2-3 Action Spots away...Your best bet with Armor is to play it in Real-Time.

 

What you just said essentially equals this: my tanks should be able to park right next to infantry for extended periods without fear. That didn't happen in WWII and doesn't happen in the game. Nor should it.

 

I play Wego exclusively and can't remember the last time I lost a tank to infantry close assault. Infantry hardly rules the WWII CM battlefield. If a player uses his tanks properly, they can beat the crap out of infantry.

 

And I'm an infantry guy!

Edited February 24, 2015 by Macisle

[Macisle]

As for CMBS infantry, I find it so far feels a bit weaker vs. heavy/APS armor, as compared to WWII infantry--aside from the Javelin teams, which are godlike. Part of the problem is that modern tanks spot so much better than WWII tanks and react quicker, which blunts the benefit of modern infantry having so many AT weapons in hand. A WWII bazooka team might get off 2-3 shots before receiving return fire, but a modern AT team may only get 1 shot off. APS also really cuts down the chances of infantry to hit paydirt with their otherwise fancy toys like RPGs. The body armor helps, but WWII spotting levels probably give infantry more protection overall. Of course, modern infantry has tons of AT power versus lesser armor.

 

One thing to think about:

 

Even though vehicles are a lot more common today than in WWII, they certainly aren't everywhere, all the time. Scenario designers are free to cut down the APS/armor levels to focus more on the infantry fights. That's what I've been doing in my own custom QB scenarios. The infantry on infantry fights in CMBS are actually really, really good. The body armor usually slows things down more than the modern weapon mix speeds things up. Well, except for the RPGs everywhere. Those and the rifle-based grenades can really hurt sometimes.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Macisle

[c3k]

LOL. My infantry die very quickly, too.

 

Tiring: Modern infantry carry far more than their WWII counterparts. Don't QUICK or FAST too much. Ride 'em in. But not too close.

 

Vulnerability to tanks: that's the power of thermals.

 

Cover, stealth, split teams, and overwatching elements: all needed for survivability.

[MikeyD]

The game manual states that vehicles with APS should be very rare and expensive on the battlefield. Perhaps they're being a bit overused in-game initially due to the initial 'gee-wiz' factor. Drop the proportion of APS vehicle used and game balance shifts along with it.

I just checked, my fist attempt at standard rarity, veteran, high morale Abrams embedded in the TO&E I can purchase for 724 points. A similar APS-equipped Abrams is 900. A significant difference but perhaps it should be even higher to discourage APS purchase.

 

My point (if I ever had one;)) is like with the WWII titles , after everyone is satiated playing with the mighty uberweapons they're likely going to migrate to playing more balanced infantry-heavy forces with attached light armor. Or as someone once said on the CMx1 board many years ago, newbies play Tigers versus Stalins, veterans play Hungarian infantry against Finns - or words to that effect. 

Edited February 24, 2015 by MikeyD

[dan/california]

Nobody brought up the computer controlled airburst rounds.  These COMEPLETLY change the tank infantry equation, spotted equals dead, period.  Its not quite as bad once you get past a thousand meters, but still, its fire one missile and leave. If you're lucky, otherwise its fire one and die.

[sburke]

As everyone noted above, Cmx1 was WW 2, CMBS is now.  Infantry are still lethal, but in a different way.  Takes learning new tactics.

[Zveroboy1]

My infantry dies like dogs.

 

I have tried sneaking up on tanks a few times thinking I was being all sneaky and clever... yeah I won't be doing that a lot in the future.

This is what it feels like :

 

[agusto]

Yeah, thermal sights make tanks extremely deadl. In my last game i had spotted a platoon of bradelys in a very thick, long treeline. I thought i would try to sneak up some RPGs through the woods on their flanks, but it didnt work out as expected. Most of them were spotted and killed and i had to send my BMP3s in to engage the the Bradleys at super close range.

[Stagler]

The game manual states that vehicles with APS should be very rare and expensive on the battlefield. Perhaps they're being a bit overused in-game initially due to the initial 'gee-wiz' factor. Drop the proportion of APS vehicle used and game balance shifts along with it.

I just checked, my fist attempt at standard rarity, veteran, high morale Abrams embedded in the TO&E I can purchase for 724 points. A similar APS-equipped Abrams is 900. A significant difference but perhaps it should be even higher to discourage APS purchase.

 

My point (if I ever had one;)) is like with the WWII titles , after everyone is satiated playing with the mighty uberweapons they're likely going to migrate to playing more balanced infantry-heavy forces with attached light armor. Or as someone once said on the CMx1 board many years ago, newbies play Tigers versus Stalins, veterans play Hungarian infantry against Finns - or words to that effect. 

 

An entire company of APS BMP-3 is completely unfeasabile unless there is no restriction. It also costs hella points.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Infantry are good in suitable terrain such as urban warfare, trenches etc. And you need them to clear defended positions. And unlike tanks the infantry  won't reverse out of sight when lased. They will often have ATGMs or Light anti ak weapos so they are more than capable of taking on enemy armour succesfully. You just have to work out how to use them as part of the combined arms packge on the modern battlefield. That means using them in suitable terrain such as woods and built up areas. Out in the open infantry that are not dug in or supported effectively by armoured support will stand little chance. So don't put them in that position!

[Doug Williams]

I'm confused by the term CMX1 in this thread. To me, CMX1 was CMBO/CMBB/CMAK.

[Frankster65]

I'm confused by the term CMX1 in this thread. To me, CMX1 was CMBO/CMBB/CMAK.

 

You are correct.  That is indeed what it signifies. 

[womble]

I'm confused by the term CMX1 in this thread. To me, CMX1 was CMBO/CMBB/CMAK.

 

You are correct.  That is indeed what it signifies.

Which is why people are assuming that Highlander40 is having to make the big jump from x1 to x2 as well as the jump from 1940s to 2010s. 

 

In CMX1, infantry ruled.

[antaress73]

I managed to sneak a truck driver whom I equipped with an RPG-26 from his own truck behind an M1A2 (took forever) who was the last American surviving unit on the map (the truck driver was the last russian) and he destroyed the M1 with a shot to thé back of the turret.. Victory ! The tank was sitting on a victory hex at the back of the map so its possible

Edited February 25, 2015 by antaress73