Bocage + pathfinding = rage

[Mastiff]

I beleave has much to do about CPU calculation speed and the soldiers getting lost.

The slower the system the more it will look like the game engine is at fault.

I myself, having no issues with Bocage all 4 levels, no problems.

Good job BF now what next?

[theFightingSeabee]

See what you are getting at, bocage has dominated the game a bit too much, it's tedious so the game becomes tedious.

Bocage has also dominated Normandy! Tedious bocage fighting is why the invasion went much slower than the generals had planned.

Take a look at this: http://www.google.com/search?q=bocage+tactics&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7ADBF_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1897&bih=851

[Other Means]

Title says it all. :mad:

If you've played the German campaign you'll know what I mean. You literally spend 90% of your time micromanaging your vehicles so they don't clog up the road every 5m.

Maybe if you had a screenshot of what you're doing and where it's gone wrong we can see why you're having issues.

I've had none, and I'm the laziest player in the world so put down the fewest possible waypoints.

[Dark Knight]

I challenged his positions based on what he wrote where I disagreed with them. What exactly do you think I should have done differently?

Not that I think this will make a lick of difference, but here's how you could have gotten the same message across a little differently...

I believe that as much as I believe the world is going to end on Saturday. Either that or you are about 1000 times slower than I am when playing the exact same scenario.

I think you must be exaggerating slightly. I personally don't feel that I spend 90% of my time that way when I play the game.

Then try a different approach. Clearly whatever you are doing isn't very efficient.

Perhaps you could try a different tactic? There are many strategies in this game, and some work better in some places than others.

I play RealTime only, and I almost never pause. I also win. A lot. So either I'm the most incredible player on the face of the earth, compared to the average, or you're doing something unnecessary that is bogging you down.

I play RealTime exclusively and almost never pause and am able to do pretty well in my games. There's probably some things that you're doing unnecessarily that are slowing you down.

The easiest method is to plot a Waypoint directly in front of where you want to breach, then another right on the opposite side (not necessary if you're moving straight through). You should have zero pathfinding problems. And it takes no time to do this at all.

Try plotting a waypoint directly in front of where you want to breach, then another right on the opposite side (not necessary if you're moving straight through). There shouldn't be any pathfinding problems, and it's very fast to do.

Unless, of course, you're trying to get a vehicle to move through a complicated path by just plopping down one Waypoint 100m away and expecting the game to do all the work exactly as you want it done. That's just not going to lead to good results.

Keep in mind that with lots of intervening obstacles you're going to have to be a little more specific in your move orders.

Huh? Bocage is more detailed than practically anything else in the game. I think most people so far have actually come to the opposite conclusion about what Bocage does for the game. But each to their own. Since no other game will ever have Bocage in it you need not fear having to repeat the experience with another one in the near future at least.

Bocages are very important to this version of the game as they were ubiquitous in the terrain encountered and vital to the planning of operations. I feel that our rendering of bocages is extremely detailed and many others seem to enjoy them and feel they make a positive contribution to gameplay. I'm sorry that you don't seem to agree, but at least future games will not feature them

Yup, that's right. Let's chuck the baby right out with the bathwater because of minor issues. Even better, let's chuck it out for perceived problems rather than real ones. Seems to make sense to me! Er... not

I respectfully disagree. We've made incredible strides with this game and though I understand your concerns, I feel that they are ones of personal taste rather than being due to true missteps in our development process.

I've noticed you seem to be one of those customers that likes to exaggerate minor issues into bigger ones than they really are. If you want to find faults in the game, and you want to make them spoil your fun, then you will. It's your choice to do this, but it's our choice to not look at molehills as mountains.

I hope you'll be able to set aside your qualms about those aspects of the game that you've mentioned, because there is an incredibly wonderful experience just waiting for you despite them. I'm sure that if you can just put them out of your mind for a couple of battles you'll really be able to appreciate what this game has to offer

Steve

Hugs and kisses,

Steve

So there's another option. Everything but that last part is neither kissing ass, nor breaking out the banhammer, and I think it gets across 100% of what you were trying to convey with 0% of the attitude, which does pervade some of your posts, though you might not be aware of it. You would sound much more professional if you composed yourself like this more often imo. Gamemakers have always behaved like this in the other game forums I've frequented. It's just being diplomatic.

[Zatoichi]

Sorry, I prefer Steve's way!

[WineCape]

The reasonable reasoning man. Love that concept.

Poster 1: "I have a complaint. It's legitimate. I say so, so it must be so."

Reasonable Deduction 1: Maybe you have, maybe you don't. Who's to know, especially since no proof/evidence is forthcoming, only opinion, your observation, your conclusion. The issue might well be game breaking, annoying to various degrees, or plainly moot. Furthermore, it may/may not be an statistical outlier, and/or, the same method/goal can be reached via an alternate offered method XYZ in the mean time, on absence of providing some evidence/proof and only your conclusions/observations. Human response: possibly unreasonable complaint

Poster 2: "I have a complaint. It's legitimate. Here some proof ..."

Reasonable Deduction 2: Ahhh, yeah, given your evidence, not just your observation/conclusion, we might agree, or the parameters should change to reflect it clearer for us. Maybe there's no solution yet, and/or the suggested alternative might not be ideal, but it's offered and here it is. Human response: possibly reasonable complaint

The Reasonable Man Concept will dictate thus: actively help Poster 2 given time allowance. Poster 1, on the other hand, will in all likelihood get a "combative, standoff" reply/counter point - not unreasonable to believe so. Poster 2 might, as a bonus, even get a future invite from BFC to be a Beta tester -- he seems a reasonable reasoning man! Poster 1.... ehhh....not so reasonable.

[George MC]

Not that I think this will make a lick of difference, but here's how you could have gotten the same message across a little differently...

I think you must be exaggerating slightly. I personally don't feel that I spend 90% of my time that way when I play the game.

Perhaps you could try a different tactic? There are many strategies in this game, and some work better in some places than others.

I play RealTime exclusively and almost never pause and am able to do pretty well in my games. There's probably some things that you're doing unnecessarily that are slowing you down.

Try plotting a waypoint directly in front of where you want to breach, then another right on the opposite side (not necessary if you're moving straight through). There shouldn't be any pathfinding problems, and it's very fast to do.

Keep in mind that with lots of intervening obstacles you're going to have to be a little more specific in your move orders.

Bocages are very important to this version of the game as they were ubiquitous in the terrain encountered and vital to the planning of operations. I feel that our rendering of bocages is extremely detailed and many others seem to enjoy them and feel they make a positive contribution to gameplay. I'm sorry that you don't seem to agree, but at least future games will not feature them

I respectfully disagree. We've made incredible strides with this game and though I understand your concerns, I feel that they are ones of personal taste rather than being due to true missteps in our development process.

I hope you'll be able to set aside your qualms about those aspects of the game that you've mentioned, because there is an incredibly wonderful experience just waiting for you despite them. I'm sure that if you can just put them out of your mind for a couple of battles you'll really be able to appreciate what this game has to offer

Hugs and kisses,

Steve

So there's another option. Everything but that last part is neither kissing ass, nor breaking out the banhammer, and I think it gets across 100% of what you were trying to convey with 0% of the attitude, which does pervade some of your posts, though you might not be aware of it. You would sound much more professional if you composed yourself like this more often imo. Gamemakers have always behaved like this in the other game forums I've frequented. It's just being diplomatic.

He! I've got to do all that kissy kissy diplomatic stuff at work, day in day out. I like Steve's refreshing clear to the point approach, with a bit of piss taking - call me Fanbois, yeah go on, I am - he uses the same approach with the Beta testers but it does make debates lively and, well fun and interesting

[WineCape]

I prefer, after 11+ years on this forum, and seeing the extreme likes of Gaylord, Lewis et al, all the way to the not-so-wild-extremes.... Steve's way.

At least he is consistent, even with our Beta testers, in that regard. My take on (extreme) Diplomacy? It's a manner of (extreme) rudeness -- heh, some British can excel in this manner to a high degree, sometimes

[JonS]

What's that saying? A gentleman is someone who is never unintentionally rude.

[WineCape]

What's that saying? A gentleman is someone who is never unintentionally rude.

That's the one.

[Thomm]

No, Dark Night got it right.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Blackcat]

Title says it all. :mad:

If you've played the German campaign you'll know what I mean. You literally spend 90% of your time micromanaging your vehicles so they don't clog up the road every 5m.

Well no, actually I don't need to spend 90% of my game time micromanaging vehicles.

Vehicle road movement, in or out of bocage country, has been a bugbear with me ever since CMBO (at least we don't still have command delays to make things even worse). There have, over the years, been umpteen requests for a road movement command, a convoy command, a follow me/follow him command. And we are still waiting. Winding back my ever failing memory, I think BF once explained that although such a command appears simple in practice the coding of it would be a nightmare and there is always something that would give greater benefit for equal effort. So this issue has never reached the top of their to do list.

I find it a little frustrating but over the years I have developed some strategies to help me get over the problem. Some of these have been posted on this thread already, so I am not going to repeat them. What I will reiterate is if you click one way point to indicate where you want the unit to end up and expect the AI to work out how to get there efficiently and in good order you will be disappointed - the AI is not clever enough to do it and for understandable reasons (if you have ever studied Decision Mathematics you will have a clue as to what computing power would be needed).

Everyone playing this game has the same problem, not all of us find the experience as time consuming or as frustrating as you do. Therefore, maybe you could change your approach and so get more enjoyment out of the game.

[Blackcat]

What's that saying? A gentleman is someone who is never unintentionally rude.

My wife said that a Gentleman is a man who gets out of his bath to have a p*ss, but she comes from an old RN family.

[Cymru]

Compared to almost every other gaming site I know, this one is amazingly non-confrontational (Peng thread excepted). As a result, even slightly brusque replies stand out, but I cannot see that any I have read are offensive. There is always the option of simply not reading postings from those who you find to be rude or patronizing.

As for bocage problems, as I said in another post: it is what it is. If it is frustrating to us, imagine what it was like in reality!

[Chek]

Personally I'm loving the Bocage.

I've found I only need to micro manage vehicles if i'm moving them long distances,which of course in Bocage is never.

The Rhino's are so much fun,a great bit of American ingenuity which must have giving the Germans quite a fright.You can't help but admire their effective simplicity.

[c3k]

Dark Knight as BF.C PR!

Ken

[Reaver]

Personally, I find Steve's method of posting quite refreshing. Honesty is always the best policy and to be totally honest, his responses cause me to smile due to his sarcasm (always the highest form of wit).

Whilst I have, myself, seen (very rare) instances with the pathfinding of infantry and vehicles in a very limited set of situations, I do not find the behaviour to be annoying, irritating or game breaking. I actually find it quite immesive due to the (very) rare occurance of it. Now, I have never been shot at, but I have been involved in the policing of large riots and even trained individuals get confused and disorientated which can cause a loss of unit cohesion and direction.

I also find the WW2 Normandy setting to be much more to my tastes than the deserts of Syria. That said, I do own CMSF and all of the modules. It's all down to personal taste in the end. If you do not enjoy Normandy then play CMSF or invest some time in the editor and make some maps which do not include this terrain feature for yourself and other like minded people. Just because the game is set in Normandy, doesn't mean the map has to BE in Normandy.

I hope that my first post in this forum has been constructive and taken in the polite manner in which it was intended.

A final thank you to Battlefront for making an excellent game and to Steve for the continued support of this game by his, and his team's, lively debates on various subjects.

[Other Means]

Dark Knight as BF.C PR!

Ken

Yeah, that'll learn him.

[TrailApe]

Bocage has also dominated Normandy! Tedious bocage fighting is why the invasion went much slower than the generals had planned.

Take a look at this

Superb representation of what was involved - Good Show TheFightingSeaBee

Must admit though, was rather expecting to see a picture of Monty!

[WineCape]

Be reminded there's no added free Westvleteren 12 if you're to be BFC's PR man. Or Achel, Chimay, Orval, Rochefort and Westmalle for that matter. Or free coasters!

[Fredrock1957]

Personally, I find Steve's method of posting quite refreshing. Honesty is always the best policy and to be totally honest, his responses cause me to smile due to his sarcasm (always the highest form of wit).

Whilst I have, myself, seen (very rare) instances with the pathfinding of infantry and vehicles in a very limited set of situations, I do not find the behaviour to be annoying, irritating or game breaking. I actually find it quite immesive due to the (very) rare occurance of it. Now, I have never been shot at, but I have been involved in the policing of large riots and even trained individuals get confused and disorientated which can cause a loss of unit cohesion and direction.

I also find the WW2 Normandy setting to be much more to my tastes than the deserts of Syria. That said, I do own CMSF and all of the modules. It's all down to personal taste in the end. If you do not enjoy Normandy then play CMSF or invest some time in the editor and make some maps which do not include this terrain feature for yourself and other like minded people. Just because the game is set in Normandy, doesn't mean the map has to BE in Normandy.

I hope that my first post in this forum has been constructive and taken in the polite manner in which it was intended.

A final thank you to Battlefront for making an excellent game and to Steve for the continued support of this game by his, and his team's, lively debates on various subjects.

I totslly agree with you, and your first post is also quite refreshing ...

I have not had any issues with pathfinding or moving around in the bocage... The only problem I am having is I am getting my ass kicked in all 4 PBEM's I am playing....

This board is the least combative of any board I have been on... There is more great information and members with fantastic insight on here. It's a special community and I am proud to be a member.

Keep up the great work Mr. Steve and all the BFC Team, you make the greatest games in the world...

[Vark]

Bocage has also dominated Normandy! Tedious bocage fighting is why the invasion went much slower than the generals had planned.

Take a look at this: http://www.google.com/search?q=bocage+tactics&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7ADBF_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1897&bih=851

Why did the Allies seriously underestimate the effect that terrain would have on the oncoming battle? What, did they expect the Germans to sportingly not fortify such force-multiplying terrain, they invented the Funnies, to solve a particular set of problems, why not adapt vehicles, BEFORE, the invasion? The British had to adapt their TO&E during the fighting and few units had worked with armour, why such unpreparedness, or was it seen as a minor issue, compared to the gargantuan task of the actual invasion?

[Reaver]

I have not had any issues with pathfinding or moving around in the bocage... The only problem I am having is I am getting my ass kicked in all 4 PBEM's I am playing....

Well if you wish to play somebody who's arse you are very likely to kick (I have never played PBEM before ) then please feel free to PM me. I may as well start learning the hard way at some point.

[finalcut]

The pathfinding problems I have had in the Bocage seem right for the terrain IMHO.Read any book about the Normandy operation and it becomes apparent that the Allies were plagued by this problem and needed a solution fast.That's why they came up with the Rhino.

I do have the occasional unit get lost,or stuck behind some big arse bush with no way to get thru,but that just adds to the realism in my opinion.How many men got lost,heck,entire Platoons ended up lost in the Bocage.Seems to me a pretty good representation of the battle we are simulating.If my guys get lost and can't get back in contact with the Main body,then I just wait till the Battle is over and then I give the leader of that unit a good ass chewing and hope it doesn't happen again.

[TrailApe]

I think the strategic considerations overuled the tactical considerations.

And as an aside, the AFV's for the 79th Division - Hobarts funnies - were built before the invasion although there were ad hoc measures (M4 Rhino) throughout the campaign.