Bocage + pathfinding = rage

[Broadsword56]

Just wait: When the Market Garden module comes out, we'll see posts whining about how having to move vehicles along those exposed, congested, elevated roads spoils all the fun, and why can't players just drive anywhere they want over the soggy fields?

To each his own, but what a silly thing it is to trash a game because it isn't in some other location or period of the war. Go play something else, then! Either that, or...

"Suck it up, soldier!"

[LemoN]

Just wait: When the Market Garden module comes out, we'll see posts whining about how having to move vehicles along those exposed, congested, elevated roads spoils all the fun, and why can't players just drive anywhere they want over the soggy fields?

To each his own, but what a silly thing it is to trash a game because it isn't in some other location or period of the war. Go play something else, then! Either that, or...

"Suck it up, soldier!"

You don't seem to understand what I and others have been saying. I'm fully aware of the restrictions and advantages of Normandy, the main problem is that it simply magnifies restrictions and problems of the engine and the pathfinding AI.

Note: I'm NOT complaining about the theatre itself, I'm complaining about problems and restrictions of the engine that are magnified by the theatre. Like not being able to put foxholes into the bocage. If the bocage wouldn't be there you wouldn't even be aware of it, yet having a heavily bocaged map will make you immediately aware of the restrictions of the CMx2 engine when it comes to fortifications. Similar to the pathfinding, you definitely wouldn't see me complaining about pathfinding in a theatre that's mostly open terrain. Yet the extremely narrow roads make each and every "quirk" in the pathfinding have immense consequences with a huge traffic jam as soon as a vehicle in the column simply decided to randomly crash into a hedge to it's left.

[derbius]

I agree with LemoN - it's too hard to see gaps in the bocage for infantry using the camera which would be fairly obvious for real troops on the ground so you end up having to send them to the other side and let the AI figure out how only for the AI to make a dumb decision. One problem I have run across - inf automatically sticking to cover isn't always a good idea - sometimes you really do want them to follow the path you give them diagonally across a field. Is there a 'force this path' option? Could there be?

[YankeeDog]

Bocage fighting actually reminds me a lot of Red v. Red urban combat fighting in CMSF. Tactically, fighting in dense hedgerow, and fighting in an old Syrian city with lots of narrow alleys, isn't all that different. One major difference is that in combat CMBN is a little more forgiving; when every single squad member has an automatic weapon, and RPGs are very common as well, it's not uncommon to see an entire squad wiped out in seconds, before you have a chance to react.

I'm not having too much difficulty placing & moving my men and vehicles around the bocage, but it may be that the experience of playing CMSF urban combat scenarios for the past three years has gotten me used to the basic system, and how to get it to do what I want.

Hard to give suggestions or pointers without seeing pictures of what people are doing that's creating frustrating results. I think most of the previous advice is good: Slower moves, shorter moves. Be generous with your spacing between vehicles. Usually, less waypoints is better too, though there are certain specific situations where multiple waypoints in quick succession is advisable.

I'm sure the UI for controlling movement in CMx2 could be improved, and the unit level pathing AI could probably also be improved. There is ALWAYS room for improvement with these types of things. Overall, though, I find CMx2 pretty good in these areas; certainly superior to CMx1.

But I think it's also important to keep in mind that Bocage is pretty much the opposite of "tank country". So you just need to accept the fact that where and how you can move your armor will be limited. There is a reason why the Germans kept most of their better armor deployed against the Brits and Canadians to the East where the terrain was more open, and by and large did not attempt any large armor movements in the bocage.

And it may well be that dense, close range combat like bogage fighting is not your personal "cup of tea." That's fine. There are more than a few scenarios in CMBN that are not in bocage, and I'm sure many more non-bocage scenarios and maps will be coming from the community soon. And you have the "Brits & Chums" module coming up, which I'm sure will feature plenty of non-bocage stuff. To each their own.

But IMHO, the simulation of bocage fighting in CMBN is pretty darn good. You don't have to like it, but I don't see how you can't respect it.

[YankeeDog]

I agree with LemoN - it's too hard to see gaps in the bocage for infantry using the camera which would be fairly obvious for real troops on the ground ...

wrt this specifically: While I'm not sure I necessarily agree that "it would be fairly obvious for real troops on the ground," here is a very easy trick for seeing the gaps in bocage in CMBN:

Briefly lower the graphics level of detail to "Faster or Fastest" (You can control graphics detail on the fly in the game using the "{" and "}" keys), and then pop up to Level 4 view. At this level of detail, at higher view levels, bocage are represented as 2-dimensional green walls, and the small "infantry passes" are very easy to spot.

[Battlefront.com]

Get over yourself and please take a few lessons in customer relations.

I think it is you who should be taking notes from other customers. Do you see me interact with every customer here like you see me interacting with you? Over the last 12 years? No. Some people, and you are one of them, think that the only way to get attention is to go over the top. Just look at the subject line of this thread. "Rage"? Look at the presumption you made that we should probably have not done Normandy at all because it's so badly broken. You don't think you're overreacting a bit?

Never have I seen a developer trying to drive away customers THAT hard.

No, I'm trying to drive away customers who insist on trying to make this experience here, on this Forum, a contentious one. It's your choice to be here as it is mine.

And if you don't treat me with respect then I won't treat you with respect either. Simple.

It is rather simple, but I don't really think you fully get it. I didn't start this thread, I didn't rant way beyond a simple question. You were going pretty full guns before I even got into this thread.

Steve

[Sixxkiller]

Did you know that at the last minute we all had a discussion behind the scenes targeting you with this monumental bug so you could come to our rescue. We figured it would take you 3 days to totally squash these bugs. You sir have failed but I know its only because you are working on a CM killer.

I am now in the process of writing a scathing resignation letter to Battlefront and hope that you and I can design a better game in the coming weeks. We will have movement by mental telepathy and a super jump hack to leap these silly bocage thingys so that we ensure the Allies win every battle. Steve always said this wouldnt be realistic. We will show him how much it Roxzors!

Sincerely,

Charles

[LemoN]

I agree with LemoN - it's too hard to see gaps in the bocage for infantry

Uhh.... I didn't mention anything like this. :confused:

@ Steve

I actually regret buying CM:BN now, not because it's bad (it's great!) but because I should have never supported anyone like you. You neither deserve my respect nor my money.

[The_Capt]

Another way around it is to get off the roads and blast some nice holes in the bocage. This means supporting engineers while theydo it but it really open your options up rathr than pushing a lot of vehs down a single road, which is bad tactics anyway.

The engine is what the engine is. BFC didn't sit around and go "we know pathfinding is broken but lets send it out to those suckers anyway". I have played this game in one form or another for over a year and yes there are some situations where pathfinding will get on your nerves but these should be in the small minority.

If you are experiencing "90%" failures as you post, trust me it isn't the pool stick it is the guy pushing it. Time and experience will heal all.

[Sgt Joch]

You don't seem to understand what I and others have been saying. I'm fully aware of the restrictions and advantages of Normandy, the main problem is that it simply magnifies restrictions and problems of the engine and the pathfinding AI.

LemoN,

You can't just make blanket generalizations about the pathfinding AI. The pathfinding system in CMBN is very sophisticated. There is a separate underlying pathfinding matrix that the AI uses to figure out its path. In theory, you could just place one waypoint at the other end of the map and the AI would find its way. It would not be optimum, but you would not get the massive traffic jams in CMx1.

Everyone who has played CMx1 will remember that moving armor through a forest was a nightmare. You had to plot the waypoint of every vehicle, ensure adequate spacing, use time pauses so they would not bunch up, but if there was one misstep, they would pile up into horrible traffic jam.

In CMx2, vehicles require much less babysitting, usually just enough waypoints so the AI will know what route you want it to take. If vehicles bunch up, they will auto pause on their own until the vehicles in front clear the road.

Is it perfect? Of course not, but it is lightyears ahead of CMx1 and everyone who has played CMSF will also notice that the vehicle pathfinding has been further improved and refined in CMBN.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The funny thing is indeed that the people most annoyed by Steve's blunt approach are those that themselves are very blunt. "Do as I say, don't do as I do", huh?

Nope, I like Steves style, in general. He can get a bit carried away at times, but that is more then made up for by not being some oily PR bull**** spouting twat.

Try dealing with the community manager of The Creative Assembly or the PR lady at 2K games with their slick PR ways and not get an urge to invent an internet punching device.

As for the actual topic. I just do not recognise the problem nor has a good case been made. I see nothing that backs up the sweeping conclusions reached by poster.

[Battlefront.com]

LemoN, I can understand your frustration with what you regard as unhelpful responses earlier in the thread, but Sitting Duck has just made an offer to see if he can assist you in your enjoyment of the game.

Others have made suggestions too. They are being overlooked because that isn't really what LemoN is interested in.

I am not critising you, or saying that you are playing the game incorrectly. All I am saying is that I am sure that (whatever the solution) you would rather enjoy the game than be on the forum continuing to post about something which is causing you to not enjoy it. I am also absolutely certain, without wishing to speak for others, that Steve and all the team at Battlefront would prefer that you enjoyed the game also. With that in mind, faced with (what seemed to me to be) a genuine offer of assistance, I think it would be a shame to turn it down.

You are correct that I want people to enjoy the game they just purchased. I just wish some people didn't try so hard not to.

In my first post to LemoN I offered advice on how to move through Bocage. It took only a couple of sentences. Others have offered advice too. Has LemoN tried any of these things? Who can tell since he's made no mention of it, though he's mentioned lots of other things. I can see he's scoffed, quite rudely, at someone honestly trying to help him.

Steve

[LemoN]

Everyone who has played CMx1 will remember that moving armor through a forest was a nightmare. You had to plot the waypoint of every vehicle, ensure adequate spacing, use time pauses so they would not bunch up, but if there was one misstep, they would pile up into horrible traffic jam.

Thing is, this is exactly my experience with CM:BN. In addition the AI randomly decides "Screw this waypoint I'll just try to drive through this 3m tall hedge!" creating further chances for massive traffic jams.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I actually regret buying CM:BN now, not because it's bad (it's great!) but because I should have never supported anyone like you. You neither deserve my respect nor my money.

See what I mean? Another poster also made sweeping statements labelling others as fanbois. And they are the ones that are arguing for a gentle conversational tone? Please...

[Rocky Balboa]

To The OP.....

It seems to me that playing RT may be part of your problem. You said in a previous post that you are a CMx1 vet yet you seem dead set on playing CM:BN RT. When Steve says "try a different approach" why don't you try WEGO?

I'm not dumping on RT play some people do it and do it very well others don't and that's why CMx2 supports both styles.

Have you watched the AAR's? I think the AAR's this one in particular will show that RT can be played in this game and I didn't see this player having the problems that you are having.

For me personally I've tried RT but with the exceptions of the smallest of battles PLT to CO-, its just too hectic for me. Playing WEGO may give you more time to manage your troops and increase your enjoyment.

[gunnersman]

I have to admit, when framed against past posts, I thought Steve came on a little strong myself. Didn't strike me as very diplomatic. That doesnt mean you have to kiss butt. But I guess it's a matter of perception.

But then again...It's friggin' Normandy! Of course it's hard! I have no problems with path finding myself.

On another note, print screen does not work for me either. It only takes pictures of my desk top or another open window. I can never take screen shots of CMSF. Although I have not tried it with CMBN as I have Fraps now. Windows 7.

[~Viajero]

See what I mean? Another poster also made sweeping statements labelling others as fanbois. And they are the ones that are arguing for a gentle conversational tone? Please...

Elmar,

Be that as it may, but I am pretty sure that if Steve´s initial response had been something akin to what Dark Knight has suggested (not conforntational, and not arselicking either) this thread would have probably not exploded as it has. People´s offers to help would have probably been accepted. Steves tone diverted the whole thread though.

[Sgt Joch]

Thing is, this is exactly my experience with CM:BN.

Well then tell us what you are doing and we can help you out. Between CMSF and now CMBN, some of us actually know what we are doing.

usually the same basic rules as in CMx1 are the best: make sure there are enough waypoints so the AI can't misinterpret your order, send small groups at a time, be careful using the "hunt" command, etc.

[Battlefront.com]

LemoN,

I actually regret buying CM:BN now, not because it's bad (it's great!) but because I should have never supported anyone like you. You neither deserve my respect nor my money.

I am not here to serve as your form of punching bag therapy. You are an extremely aggressive and disrespectful poster. This is not the only thread, though you're really showing off here. Yet, like so many that have come before you on the Internet, you expect people to show you respect.

If you are serious, I can give you refund so you don't have to lay awake at night unhappy about supporting us. I'm willing to give you a refund despite our no-return policy. Just let me know by PM (I'll need your order number) and we'll refund your credit card. We'll also disable your game too, but fair is fair.

Another option is to realize that that you are the one who is controlling the tone of this discussion, and perhaps try another approach.

The last option available is to not do either and instead insist on trying to make what could be a constructive discussion into an unpleasant experience. In that case you can keep playing CM, but not discussing it here.

We pride ourselves on giving our customers options. The choice of which one is up to you.

Steve

[LemoN]

And they are the ones that are arguing for a gentle conversational tone? Please...

I'm sorry but I don't consider ridiculing and being rude or posting spam as posting in a "gentle conversational tone".

The first helpful response was post #28 on page 3, which got drowned by lots of off topic and non helpful posts. The second helpful post was post #37, which too got drowned by loads of off topic posts.

My third post (after turning on my PC again and looking at the forums) was a clarification for the many people thinking that my problem was the bocage itself, which it isn't. And still up to this point people jump in and "accuse" me of complaining about breaches, allies not winning, etc. This is simply not true and completely out of context and not helpful at all.

As soon as I have time I'll do some screenshots of some of my plotted paths, until then I can't do much else than try to defuse or prevent some of the more ridiculous posts in this thread, like Sixxmkiller's post. So where exactly is the "gentle conversation tone" here?

[Chops]

When moving multiple vehicles in the same general area, or to the same destination, I issue Pause commands for each successive vehicle. First vehicle - no pause, Second vehicle - 5 sec. pause, Third vehicle - 10 sec. pause, etc...

This helps with bunching up and other issues regarding vehicle movement. I use this technique in all the CMx2 games - CMSF, CMA, CMBN.

[Battlefront.com]

Gunnersman,

I have to admit, when framed against past posts, I thought Steve came on a little strong myself. Didn't strike me as very diplomatic. That doesnt mean you have to kiss butt. But I guess it's a matter of perception.

It is, obviously. However, look at the subject line and each of LemoN's posts prior to my first response. Look at the ones that follow, to me and to others. Then for fun, look at his ones in other threads. As for the topper, look at this comment:

"I actually regret buying CM:BN now, not because it's bad (it's great!) but because I should have never supported anyone like you. You neither deserve my respect nor my money."

I've been doing this Forum thing for a long time. I can spot the people who want to make problems a mile away. I give them a reasonable amount of time to prove me wrong before I start to address them head on. LemoN has had that time and now I have to start putting my foot down and dealing with his behavior. And of course, he doesn't like that. Often time others don't like it either. There's always some. But one thing needs to be kept in mind...

No single poster here MUST be here for this Forum to function. Even I don't need to be here. But not all posters are capable of contributing equally. Some, in fact, detract. It is my job to sort this all out, not anybody else's.

Steve

[WineCape]

An offer has been made by Steve. Interesting if the OP will take it up, or not, despite some helpful posts here, buried among this "rage-titled" thread of the OP.

[LemoN]

An offer has been made by Steve. Interesting if the OP will take it up, or not, despite some helpful posts here, buried among this "rage-titled" thread of the OP.

I'm sorry I've got him on my imaginary ignore list.

[Battlefront.com]

LemoN,

The first helpful response was post #28 on page 3, which got drowned by lots of off topic and non helpful posts. The second helpful post was post #37, which too got drowned by loads of off topic posts.

And you think this has nothing to do with the attitude of your posts? Or do you think everybody else here is interested in giving you a hard time?

Steve