Bocage + pathfinding = rage

[LemoN]

Title says it all. :mad:

If you've played the German campaign you'll know what I mean. You literally spend 90% of your time micromanaging your vehicles so they don't clog up the road every 5m.

[ng cavscout]

Which scenario?

[finalcut]

LOL.I was very frustrated by this also.I found the best way to deal with this is move in very small forward moves,like under 50 feet.Also,make sure you move the platoons together,but click on each unit in the platoon seperatly,otherwise one squad is sure to get lost and spend the next 50 minutes trying to get unlost and will soon wander off into the enemy position,or worse yet,into a friendly Artillery barrage.:mad:

[LemoN]

Which scenario?

Any and all bocage scenarios.

It's simply a huge pain to navigate vehicles through bocage.

[Peregrine]

Not ideal but pretty unavoidable. This engine certainly handles it much better than CMx1 as well.

I find it more annoying trying to find those little infantry gaps.

[akd]

It's simply a huge pain to navigate vehicles through bocage.

Welcome to Normandy, 1944! But seriously, it can be a pain. This is very complex terrain and you need to help the AI out with more waypoints, slower movement orders and plenty of spacing.

[LemoN]

Welcome to Normandy, 1944! But seriously, it can be pain. This is very complex terrain and you need to help the AI out with more waypoints, slower movement orders and plenty of spacing.

Yup, that's exactly what I've been doing, problem is that by doing this you literally spend 90% if your time plotting and micromanaging movement... which isn't fun at all. Don't get me wrong I like micromanaging, but not if that results in me not really doing much else.

The more I play CM:BN the more I feel that BFC limited themselves by the restrictions of Normandy and the problems which arise with it. Don't get me wrong I love the game, but for some reason the bocage simply doesn't fit into the overall game, it's too abstracted compared to the incredible detail of the rest of the game and seems to highlight problems with the game engine that otherwise wouldn't be so obvious. Weird spotting issues, pathfinding issues, non-functional fortifications, etc, simply makes me think that BFC would've been better off choosing a "simpler" theatre.

[Destraex1]

the manwell already warns you of this. Why should narrow bocage be a piece of cake for heavy armour?

Manwell says rushing through heavy terrain will get u stuck/bogged and even damage movement ability.

[ChrisND]

the manwell already warns you of this. Why should narrow bocage be a piece of cake for heavy armour?

It's true! Here is him warning me:

[Speedy]

que?

................

[Andrew H.]

que?

................

Whatever you do, don't talk about the war!

[finalcut]

Whatever you do, don't talk about the war!

I thought that was fight club ?

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, that's exactly what I've been doing, problem is that by doing this you literally spend 90% if your time plotting and micromanaging movement...

I believe that as much as I believe the world is going to end on Saturday. Either that or you are about 1000 times slower than I am when playing the exact same scenario.

which isn't fun at all.

Then try a different approach. Clearly whatever you are doing isn't very efficient.

Don't get me wrong I like micromanaging, but not if that results in me not really doing much else.

I play RealTime only, and I almost never pause. I also win. A lot. So either I'm the most incredible player on the face of the earth, compared to the average, or you're doing something unnecessary that is bogging you down.

The easiest method is to plot a Waypoint directly in front of where you want to breach, then another right on the opposite side (not necessary if you're moving straight through). You should have zero pathfinding problems. And it takes no time to do this at all.

Unless, of course, you're trying to get a vehicle to move through a complicated path by just plopping down one Waypoint 100m away and expecting the game to do all the work exactly as you want it done. That's just not going to lead to good results.

The more I play CM:BN the more I feel that BFC limited themselves by the restrictions of Normandy and the problems which arise with it. Don't get me wrong I love the game, but for some reason the bocage simply doesn't fit into the overall game, it's too abstracted compared to the incredible detail of the rest of the game and seems to highlight problems with the game engine that otherwise wouldn't be so obvious.

Huh? Bocage is more detailed than practically anything else in the game. I think most people so far have actually come to the opposite conclusion about what Bocage does for the game. But each to their own. Since no other game will ever have Bocage in it you need not fear having to repeat the experience with another one in the near future at least.

Weird spotting issues, pathfinding issues, non-functional fortifications, etc, simply makes me think that BFC would've been better off choosing a "simpler" theatre.

Yup, that's right. Let's chuck the baby right out with the bathwater because of minor issues. Even better, let's chuck it out for perceived problems rather than real ones. Seems to make sense to me! Er... not

I've noticed you seem to be one of those customers that likes to exaggerate minor issues into bigger ones than they really are. If you want to find faults in the game, and you want to make them spoil your fun, then you will. It's your choice to do this, but it's our choice to not look at molehills as mountains.

Steve

[Sergei]

simply makes me think that BFC would've been better off choosing a "simpler" theatre.

Indeed, maybe BFC should have chosen a completely different setting for their first CMx2 title, like desert maybe... hmm...

[RT North Dakota]

Said it before, and I'll say it again. Even if this is a real problem or not, I think a "Follow me" button, as found it TACOPS would make a useful addition.

[Dark Knight]

I believe that as much as I believe the world is going to end on Saturday. Either that or you are about 1000 times slower than I am when playing the exact same scenario.

Then try a different approach. Clearly whatever you are doing isn't very efficient.

I play RealTime only, and I almost never pause. I also win. A lot. So either I'm the most incredible player on the face of the earth, compared to the average, or you're doing something unnecessary that is bogging you down.

The easiest method is to plot a Waypoint directly in front of where you want to breach, then another right on the opposite side (not necessary if you're moving straight through). You should have zero pathfinding problems. And it takes no time to do this at all.

Unless, of course, you're trying to get a vehicle to move through a complicated path by just plopping down one Waypoint 100m away and expecting the game to do all the work exactly as you want it done. That's just not going to lead to good results.

Huh? Bocage is more detailed than practically anything else in the game. I think most people so far have actually come to the opposite conclusion about what Bocage does for the game. But each to their own. Since no other game will ever have Bocage in it you need not fear having to repeat the experience with another one in the near future at least.

Yup, that's right. Let's chuck the baby right out with the bathwater because of minor issues. Even better, let's chuck it out for perceived problems rather than real ones. Seems to make sense to me! Er... not

I've noticed you seem to be one of those customers that likes to exaggerate minor issues into bigger ones than they really are. If you want to find faults in the game, and you want to make them spoil your fun, then you will. It's your choice to do this, but it's our choice to not look at molehills as mountains.

Steve

Steve, I'm a longtime lurker and I have to say that every single time I've seen you address someone with complaints about the game you come across as very standoffish and combative. While that may be fine for a normal fan of the game, you're, well... the voice of battlefront.com. Would a little more tact be so hard to muster? I worry that anyone that comes by this forum looking for information about the game may feel that it's a very unprofessional operation based on your demeanor sometimes.

I understand how frustrating it can be when someone criticizes your work and am usually behind what you are saying 100%... just not how you choose to say it.

My 2¢.

[WineCape]

I found BFC response to the OP's so called 'deductive reasoning' appropriate. Combative? And? Certainly no flame, rudeness or downright ad hominem attack was seen.

Just because you find, imaginative or real, certain x feature/Method frustrating makes certainly not the 'logical' observation/deduction they should have done away with the theatre altogether. Thank God such reasoning is not prevalent among BFC testers/makers, as no game would have seen the light of day. Ever.

[Comandante]

I found BFC response to the OP's so called 'deductive reasoning' appropriate. Combative? And? Certainly no flame, rudeness or downright ad hominem attack was seen.

Just because you find, imaginative or real, certain x feature/Method frustrating makes certainly not the 'logical' observation/deduction they should have done away with the theatre altogether. Thank God such reasoning is not prevalent among BFC testers/makers, as no game would have seen the light of day. Ever.

I was surprised by the tone of the BF Admin response, but I do agree with the content. I have played through 8 scenarios so far (3 as Axis) and I have had no real path finding or control issues.

There are occasions where you need to get down to ground level to recon the gaps in the hedgerows, but most of those gaps probably weren't on the maps issued to the troops, so that's exactly what their officers had to do as well, I expect.

A 'Follow me' command would be extremely useful, however.

[sand digger]

Yup, that's exactly what I've been doing, problem is that by doing this you literally spend 90% if your time plotting and micromanaging movement... which isn't fun at all. Don't get me wrong I like micromanaging, but not if that results in me not really doing much else.

The more I play CM:BN the more I feel that BFC limited themselves by the restrictions of Normandy and the problems which arise with it. Don't get me wrong I love the game, but for some reason the bocage simply doesn't fit into the overall game, it's too abstracted compared to the incredible detail of the rest of the game and seems to highlight problems with the game engine that otherwise wouldn't be so obvious. Weird spotting issues, pathfinding issues, non-functional fortifications, etc, simply makes me think that BFC would've been better off choosing a "simpler" theatre.

See what you are getting at, bocage has dominated the game a bit too much, it's tedious so the game becomes tedious.

[Sitting Duck]

...I think a "Follow me" button...would make a useful addition.

+1

Or "Follow Him..."

[Battlefront.com]

Steve, I'm a longtime lurker and I have to say that every single time I've seen you address someone with complaints about the game you come across as very standoffish and combative. While that may be fine for a normal fan of the game, you're, well... the voice of battlefront.com. Would a little more tact be so hard to muster? I worry that anyone that comes by this forum looking for information about the game may feel that it's a very unprofessional operation based on your demeanor sometimes.

I understand how frustrating it can be when someone criticizes your work and am usually behind what you are saying 100%... just not how you choose to say it.

My 2¢.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions, of course. But after 12 years of doing this I think I've found a good and fair method to handle responding and trying to reason with literally THOUSANDS of people.

I have three choices here. I could pucker up and kiss arse with every post. Tell Poster A what he wants to hear, then turn around and say the exact opposite to Poster B because he wants to hear something different. And no matter how wrong I think someone's comments are I agree with them.

Or I can do what I do, which is to constructively engage customers in a debate. They make a point, I make a counter point. I make a point, they make a counter point. This is the essence of a debate. The purpose of a debate is to arrive at some sort of understanding or agree to disagree.

A third option is I could just rip into people and ban them when I feel they're not saying what I want to hear.

After many, many years of the occasional person (usually a lurker) saying I need to behave differently, I've yet to see any other way than the three above. Since I have no interest in wasting my time being an arse kisser, nor do I think it does anybody any good to be an arse kicker, I choose the "active engagement" route. And yes... that means I am going to disagree with posters sometimes and it also means I'm going to establish a contrary position when I do. If someone's skin is so thin that they can't accept that then they shouldn't post. Or read the posts.

I'm not perfect, but after all these years and nearly 14,000 posts... I'm comfortable with the way things work here.

Steve

[MrFlopster]

Well for a start you can address the perfectly valid criticisms of a customer in a less aggressive manner. I'm afraid you don't make this forum a particularly welcoming place for new and potential fans.

*Braces for impact*

[Battlefront.com]

See what you are getting at, bocage has dominated the game a bit too much, it's tedious so the game becomes tedious.

This is a game that is, so far, centered around Bocage fighting. If we don't center around it now, when? Battle for Stalingrad doesn't seem to offer many opportunities for it

Without a doubt some will find this type of combat not to their liking. Many don't like desert combat, winter combat, forest combat, etc. Same for something like Modern or Eastern Front combat. Our philosophy is to offer a range of games for people to play and enjoy because we have a diverse gamer audience. We no more expect everybody to buy and enjoy CM:BN than we expected everybody to buy and enjoy CM:SF. It would be a silly expectation.

That being said, CM:BN doesn't force Bocage fighting onto players. Maps can be made with 0% Bocage if that's what someone wants. And when the other Modules come out there will be no significant Bocage fighting worth mentioning because this is the only release where Bocage is really relevant.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Well for a start you can address the perfectly valid criticisms of a customer in a less aggressive manner.

Valid to him, perhaps. And I acknowledged that. As for being aggressive, I don't see any of that. I challenged his positions based on what he wrote where I disagreed with them. What exactly do you think I should have done differently?

On the typical Internet Forum Agress-o-Meter I'd put myself down for a 3 with 10 being the most aggressive. Especially when you consider that I can not only ban any individual posting here for any reason, but I can ban their ability to even view our website. But that's not the way I work.

I'm afraid you don't make this forum a particularly welcoming place for new and potential fans.

So you're saying I should go the arse kissing route? I think you'd find people leaving here and droves if I did that. There's nothing worse than seeing someone who represents a game, not to mention designed much of it, do nothing but try to please everybody for the sake of... I don't know what.

*Braces for impact*

Some people don't like confrontation of any sort. I get that. But without confrontation there's nothing but mindless twaddle. I don't see how that does anybody any good.

Steve

[Stalintc]

Well for a start you can address the perfectly valid criticisms of a customer in a less aggressive manner. I'm afraid you don't make this forum a particularly welcoming place for new and potential fans.

*Braces for impact*

Actually this forum is very welcoming and there is a vast amount of helpful and fun posters, Steve has every right to engage in debate as any other member.

By the very nature of debate posts can seem aggressive when all they are doing is provoking further discussion.