Blowing holes in bocage ... explain for this old guy

[DaveyJJ]

Hi, simple old guy request ... what's the best method for blowing tank-sized holes in bocage in the tutorial? A simple point by point explanation of the best one or two methods please would be most helpful, if someone could help me out, thanks!

[MikeyD]

Pioneers/Engineers, demolition charges and 'Blast' commands. Sometimes you have to do it twice to make the gap wide enough for a tank, but often just one blast will do the trick.

[Zatoichi]

This is how I do it in WeGo - obviously, RT needs less fuss:

If no engineers are available, have a tank area fire at the bocage for about 30 seconds (use the pause feature to set this 30 seconds), and give the tank a tiny move order - then place a Target Arc order from this waypoint as that this will stop the tank blasting away for the whole minute (30 seconds should do the trick).

[Lanzfeld]

No pause needed. The tank will stop firing automatically when the hole is made.

[Zatoichi]

No pause needed. The tank will stop firing automatically when the hole is made.

Oh, that's good - less hassle all round. I must be misremembering from CMSF.

Looks like your sig is bang on the money!

[Mastiff]

I still can seem to get the mine detection to work either.

[sawomi]

I used all 5 tanks of the training scenarion to area fire with guns and mg in an concentrated efford to breach the high bocage (with trees!) on the right side next of the Allied farm-base. They did it in around 2 turns (2 min). I don't have counted how many direct hits with HE. I would think 15-20 ...at least. They blasted away a tree in the process -no kevlar-fertilizer in '44 it seems ;]. And yes, they cease fire on their own when a big breach is reached.

[Blackcat]

I used all 5 tanks of the training scenarion to area fire with guns and mg in an concentrated efford to breach the high bocage (with trees!) on the right side next of the Allied farm-base. They did it in around 2 turns (2 min). I don't have counted how many direct hits with HE. I would think 15-20 ...at least. They blasted away a tree in the process -no kevlar-fertilizer in '44 it seems ;]. And yes, they cease fire on their own when a big breach is reached.

Hmmm, five tanks take two minutes to make a hole. Not sure how useful using HE for breaching the bocage is going to be. Nice idea to keep in one's back pocket for emergencies, but I think Rhino's or engineers is the way to go for most situations.

[sawomi]

That's right of course, but the question was about the "... best method for blowing tank-sized holes in bocage in the tutorial". (no Rhinos or engineers available there)

[DaveyJJ]

Thanks all!

[Blackcat]

That's right of course, but the question was about the "... best method for blowing tank-sized holes in bocage in the tutorial". (no Rhinos or engineers available there)

Fair go, I confess I didn't read the original question properly. Mind you I am not convinced that blowing holes in the bocage with Shermans is a viable tactic even in the Tutorial, or come to that necessary but each to their own.

[akd]

That's right of course, but the question was about the "... best method for blowing tank-sized holes in bocage in the tutorial". (no Rhinos or engineers available there)

It is the "best" method available there, but really you are much better off using your combined arms forces to work around the terrain restrictions. That HE would be better spent killing Germans (err...Georgians). In fact, if tank-sized breaches in bocage are being created by as few as 15-20 hits of 75mm HE, it is a bug and will probably need to be addressed by toughening up the bocage. 75mm HE direct fire should not be a "good" way to breach bocage.

And I definitely wouldn't try this tactic against a human player.

[MikeyD]

I made a couple scenarios for the title not involving bocage (post-breakout timeline) because playing bocage was just too hard on my nerves. It was a tremendous tactical obstacle back then and its a tremendous tactical obstacle in the game. I suggest not hunting down more-or-less gamey methods to do what you shouldn't be able to do and spending more time working the tactical situation.

[Thin Red Line]

I made a couple scenarios for the title not involving bocage (post-breakout timeline) because playing bocage was just too hard on my nerves. It was a tremendous tactical obstacle back then and its a tremendous tactical obstacle in the game. I suggest not hunting down more-or-less gamey methods to do what you shouldn't be able to do and spending more time working the tactical situation.

But weren't the shermans in RL capable of going over the lower sort of bocage (exposing their belly) ?

[YankeeDog]

It is the "best" method available there, but really you are much better off using your combined arms forces to work around the terrain restrictions. That HE would be better spent killing Germans (err...Georgians). In fact, if tank-sized breaches in bocage are being created by as few as 15-20 hits of 75mm HE, it is a bug and will probably need to be addressed by toughening up the bocage. 75mm HE direct fire should not be a "good" way to breach bocage.

And I definitely wouldn't try this tactic against a human player.

If I read Sawomi's post correctly, substantially more than 15-20 rounds of HE were fired. 2 minutes of fire by 5 Shermans should be something along the lines of 40-60 rounds. 15-20 rounds would be a rate of fire of less than 2/minute, which is very low... I'm guessing the 15-20 are the ones that he judged hit in the "right place" to help breach the bocage.

40-60 rounds is in the approxmately the entire HE load of one Sherman. That's a lot of HE to blow for one gap.

Might become slightly more viable with, say, a 105mm SPG with a big ammo load. Still probably better to find another way through or around 99% of the time..

[YankeeDog]

But weren't the shermans in RL capable of going over the lower sort of bocage (exposing their belly) ?

Technically possible, but extremely risky. Not only did it expose the tank's belly, but there was a very high chance of immobilization. AIUI, attempting this was strongly discouraged.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

I think there's a huge difference between low and high bocage - using tank guns to blast through low bocage is feasible, but it's not a reasonable method for high bocage. In the case of the demo scenario, the channeling of the armor through the few existing openings is part of the challenge! Personally, I attacked solely through the left, and could get all my tanks through the single opening without any issue once I had knocked out the German AT gun (which did first get one of my tanks through the hedgerow, though) and captured the farm on the left.

[sawomi]

I really don't suggest that this is a good tactic. I just read the question, and thought: Let's try it with direct fire. So it's more meant as a test of the game engine. This method will cost time, ammo and suprise effect (against human intelligence). Also Yenkee Dog is right. 15-20 HE rounds was just a very basic aproximation. The 5 shermans for shure fired more. Nice effect was that first all rounds impacted in the bocage, but later there where some rounds going through the bocage, when it still was standing. Some test is nessecary if one could 'decrase' bocage somewhat with this method - to gain spotting-abbility through it from some distance.... But I will for wait for full functioning editor for all this stuff.

[Spanish Bombs]

I've been playing around with this also. It works, but it does use up a lot of valuable HE rounds pretty quickly. I don't suppose that there is a way to keep them from using up their MG ammo while doing this?

[gunnergoz]

There was a reason that Sgt Cullin came up with his Rhino cutters - the tanks by themselves were found to be relatively unable to cut a path or traverse through bocage without risk. But with the cutters welded on the front of the tank even an M-5 light could reliably clear a path for itself by slicing down the bocage growth at the level of the cutters.

Interestingly, most of the scrap iron that these cutters were made of, came from Rommel's beach defenses a couple of miles away. Good use of available material!

[sburke]

Interestingly, most of the scrap iron that these cutters were made of, came from Rommel's beach defenses a couple of miles away. Good use of available material!

One of the conspiracy theories out there says Rommel deliberately built the Normandy defenses the way he did in the hopes the allies would figure out how to use the material in just this way. Umm no I really am kidding, but how long before I get quoted as a source in wikipedia?

"Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information." Michael Scott

[dieseltaylor]

By late June, many units throughout the First Army had developed a variety of means to breach the hedgerows. The 83rd Infantry Division in VII Corps used two 25-pound explosive charges. Engineers packed the explosives in a sandbag, buried them by hand two feet into the hedgerow embankment, and then tamped the hole full of dirt to increase the effectiveness of the charge.

Engineers not that fast then? Quicker if using a tank also, and the articles I have seen rarely mention whether it is serious bocage or the smaller variety. My guess is that logically you go for the smaller variety. A 6ft plus thick bank with tree and bush roots plus a ditch is not an attractive choice.

The use of the Rhino tanks in Operation Cobra has become something of legend. Nearly all accounts of the campaign mention the devices, even if they mention none of the other innovations introduced during Cobra, such as the new 76 mm gun M4 medium tank, and the new tank-infantry communication aids. One recent study of Cobra, Col. James Carafano's 'After D-Day', goes so far as to label the stories of the Rhino tanks a myth. Certainly, the importance of the Rhino tanks has tended to be exaggerated. It is an appealing tale of ingenuity in the heat of battle. It makes for a good story, particularly in popular histories and in television documentaries. It is far more dramatic, especially on TV, than the technical complexity of tank radios, tactical improvements and other less visual innovations.

Were the Rhino tanks effective? In fact, there is very little evidence. Some tank units that used Rhino devices on the first day of the battle, 25 July, found that they were no panacea. The problem was not so much the Rhinos as the pre-attack bombardment which churned up the pastures, which made it difficult to charge across the fields and build up enough speed to breach the hedgerows. Other units such as the 3rd Armored Division had little luck with the hedge cutters. But they had been added to their tanks at the very last minute with little chance to practice the new tank-infantry tactics. The 3rd Armored Division had far fewer tanks with hedge cutters than the 2nd Armored Division, only about 25 per cent compared to almost 75 per cent. It might have been expected that the 2nd Armored Division, which put up such a sterling performance in Cobra, might have emerged as champions of the device they had helped pioneer.

In fact, operational accounts of the 2nd Armored Division in Cobra provide few indications that the devices ever played much of a role. This had more to do with the conduct of the fighting than with any technical virtue or failing of the Rhinos. The preliminary air attack against the Panzer Lehr Division shattered the main force opposing the 2nd Armored Division. As a result, the division aggressively pushed through the German defences. Rather than struggle cross-country through the bocage, the 2nd Armored Division used the country roads wherever possible, avoiding the need to use the Rhinos. Tankers that I have interviewed over the years had mixed feelings about the Rhinos. Some said that the Rhino worked, but that it was hard on the crew. Others said they hardly ever used it, as once the break-through began, the situation was so fluid that it was seldom needed. In contrast, the far less celebrated dozer tanks are often mentioned, since they were useful not only in breaking through the hedgerows, but in repairing the bomb damaged roads. Whether effective or not, the Rhino tanks have become one of the popular legends of the Normandy campaign, and are likely to remain so in spite of debunking by historians.

Incidentally when talking of knocking out delicate optics and radios with shock from shell hits one might consider ramming banks of earth at speed and possibly coming to a complete halt to be a fairly chancy use of a tank. And not too comfortable for the crew.

[Cull]

Here's a story.

I had one of my breach teams (Breaking the Bocage scenario) up against a tall bocage with a bunch of other guys, and ordered them to blow it. It didn't happen that turn (WEGO-style play) so I thought "hmm, maybe they need more than a minute." I ordered them again just to be sure. Still didn't happen. Third time I'm off looking somewhere else, hear the explosion, and come over to see that they've decided to blow a whole in the bocage across the road behind them.

Umm...that's great guys but see, we're trying to go forward in this particular mission.

*shrug* Guess I'm asking if there's a particular way to make sure they're doing what you want when you give the "blast" order. I did notice that when giving the order a command line appears, but it seemed to always wanted to point parallel to the bocage, rather than at it. So I guess they couldn't tell what I wanted them to blow, and took a guess that it was the bocage behind them

[Jonny(FGM)]

Unfortunately in order to blast a hole through the bocage you have to send the breach team in through it, IE plot the waypoint of the blast command on the other side of the bocage, i'm sure somebody in CMSF found a way around this but its not foolproof, let me see if i can find it

[Jonny(FGM)]

Ah here it is

http://battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=83992&page=2

If i remember correctly it doesn't work 100% of the time, and I havn't had chance to test it out in CMBN (but have in CMSF) but it should work.

Personally I just usually tend to use blast on buildings in CMSF and in situations where i want to burst through the obstacle with men. Experience from the demo shows I may need to change however