Will the Rumblings of War tournament (Row) be Returning

[para]

And that of Interpol I would imagine....

As stated earlier, i am a man with a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people in interpol. I'm also a fantasist if you haven't already guessed? ;-p as it happens i'm now on the guest list so my BS seems to have worked :-)

ps WineCape as soon as you lay your hands on the rules,RoW rulebook/playbook and regs any chance of a copy? pretty please

[James Crowley]

I participated in RoW 3, I think it was. Didn't do very well but completed all of my games, if memory serves.

May have been jimcrowley back then? Perhaps I am not in good standing?

[Renaud]

I'm preordered and ready when the time comes...where do we sign up.

Loved the scenarios, the competition, the aar's, and the tourney as a whole.

[ChrisND]

I'm so in. I will crush you all beneath my boots! Your puny essay requirements cannot match me!

!!!

I might be up for making maps for it as well.

[ng cavscout]

Do any of the organizers have the AAR's from the previous ROW's?

[A Canadian Cat]

No - I think Flak Jackets

Sure - but green ones:-)

[A Canadian Cat]

What is Rumblings of War? Simply THE premiere wargaming tournament that ever was held using the Combat Mission games.

<snip>

These scenarios are not balanced and in fact some cases are downright unfair!! The Nabla scoring system (outlawed in at least three countries btw) doesn't measure the players final score, it measures his very worth as compared to every other player in the tourney. I have personally seen grown men break down and weep like babes when the numbers were crunched and it was time to "come to Jesus".

<snip>

A friend of mine at work was all excited one day that there as a new CM game coming out. I said what's Combat Mission. After he told me I said I would buy AK and BB that night if he wanted to play. I cannot believe I missed out on this when it came out. I am having soooo much fun just playing the old games.

RoW sounds very cool. I like the sounds of it. While I am happy to play a balanced QB I really enjoy the hard ones: Playing the Candian's in CMAK's Blessings or the Americans in CMAK's The Dead Solute the Gods. Right now I am seeing how well I can manage as the German's in CMBB's White Wave. Nothing beats the challenge of making do with a sub par position. Any other recommendations for uneven match-ups in AK or BB? You all have 10 years of playing these on me.

I can play a PBEM turn pretty much every morning and can handle three or four simultaneous scenarios. I would soooo like to get in on this.

Thanks,

Ian

[wadepm]

That list brought back a lot of memories. Wasn't there a scenario where you had to coax about a bajjillion russian conscripts to take a couple of farm houses from some exhausted germans? And then a T-34 shows up...

[ThomasZ]

we so need some old AAR's for entertainment while we await the new CM

[WineCape]

Do any of the organizers have the AAR's from the previous ROW's?

Got them on my old computer's HDD, which has been stripped for parts. Just need to transfer the data from its HDD. One day. I believe KingFish might be of help, as I see the Boots & Track website where the AAR's were hosted ... is no more...

Treeburst155, Ace Pilot, Holien and John Kettler et al had been AAR judges at some stage of RoW. They might have further info.

[WineCape]

Prize winner for ROW V's best AAR: BigDuke's Push to Maleme, winning him a T-34/85 model build by Richie for some entertaining reporting skills...

http://www.gregories.net/row/files/pm_Bigduke6.pdf

"This is just to announce that Richie's model T-34/85, which I won under questionable circumstances during the ROW V tournament, arrived safely in Kiev Ukraine and is now on proud display on a book case next to a window overlooking the Ukrainian capital's main street, the Khreschatyk." -- BigDuke6, 05/2006

Other nominations for best AAR went to

(1) Platehead in Wet Triangle -- http://www.gregories.net/row/files/wt_Platehead.pdf

(2) Bigdog944 version of Wet Triangle -- http://www.gregories.net/row/files/wt_BigDog944.pdf

(3) Andrew Kulin's Push to Maleme -- http://www.gregories.net/row/files/pm_Andrew_Kulin.pdf

(4) BigDuke6's Across Moltke Bridge -- http://www.gregories.net/row/files/mb_Bigduke6.pdf

See also...

Wet Triangle AAR (RoW V CMBB) http://www.gregories.net/row/files/wt_Larry_Thorne.pdf

South of Vevi (ROW IV) - http://www.users.on.net/~martin.gregory/CMAK/AAR_GreenAsJade_South_of_Vevi.pdf and others by same author here http://www.users.on.net/~martin.gregory/CMAK/aars.html

A few scenario names might sound familiar to some past players King of Debrecen, The Beast, Hosszupalyi, The Christmas Battle, Rearguard Action, Things that go Bump in the Night, Highlanders in Hell. Some previous ROW winners were Wreck (RoW I); Kanonier Reichmann/Ali/Jon_L (RoW II); Deadly 88/Frunze/mPisi (RoW III) and Walpurgis Nacht (ROW V?)

Where else can you get these spiffy goodies and some vino to wash away the empty feeling of combat...? RoW naturally.

ROW's fun, also terrifying, heartbreaking, hair-rending, euphoric, black despair, momentary elation.

[Melnibone]

http://www.users.on.net/~martin.gregory/CMAK/AAR_GreenAsJade_South_of_Vevi.pdf

Tee hee...happy days....that was the great thing about the ROW battles...so very memorable....I can still vividly remember that one....my 2 pounder was on fire

[ng cavscout]

Good reading, can't wait to try a tourney with the new CMBN engine. New players are in for a treat when they get their hands on it.

[Broken]

My CM1 turf was the TH and then RD (Rugged Defense) ladders/tournaments.

I never played ROW tournaments, but they sound quite compelling. Especially since neither RD or TH still exist. We did try to put together an inter-board competition (Tournament of Titans), but it fell apart, partly due to Fionn's stubbornness, as Treeburst155 and others may recall.

[dieseltaylor]

The only outstanding gripe I recall from the NABLA was the valid comment that some battles were easier to get an outlier score on than others. I think Wet Triangle was cited as an example.

If I recall correctly the players did not all play the same schedule of games.

My solution which I think remains valid is that there are two winners - each dozen or so players have exactly the same game schedule.

If one feels the necessity for an overall winner I suggest that the top two play reverse same battle where they are both allowed as much time as they wish pre-game start. Personally I prefer the more honest finish with two winners.

I am a great fan of NABLA as it most honestly allows the unfair nature of battle.

[Sivodsi]

The only outstanding gripe I recall from the NABLA was the valid comment that some battles were easier to get an outlier score on than others. .

The answer is to use Rasch statistics.

[dieseltaylor]

Well of course that was the first thing I thought of - and discarded : )

2. Why undertake a Rasch analysis?

A researcher who is developing items of a test or questionnaire intending to sum the scores on the items can use a Rasch model analysis to check the degree to which this scoring and summing is defensible in the data collected. For example, if two groups are to be compared on the variable of interest (e.g. males and females), it is important to demonstrate that the workings of the items is the same in the two groups. Working in the same way permits interpreting the total score as meaning the same in the two groups.

In checking how well the data fit the model, it is important to be able to diagnose very quickly where the misfit is the worst, and then proceed to try to understand this misfit in terms of the construction of the items and the understanding of the variable in terms of its theoretical development.

A very important part of the Rasch analysis from this perspective is to be in dynamic and interactive control of an analysis and to be able to follow the evidence to see where the responses may be invalid.

I think all the problems inherent in applying it to a Nabla Tournament are self-evident.

[WineCape]

The only outstanding gripe I recall from the NABLA was the valid comment that some battles were easier to get an outlier score on than others. I think Wet Triangle was cited as an example.

Wet Triangle, if I am not mistaken, was also a very balanced scenario, with both Axis and Allies teams scoring close to the 50-point mark.

A median is just that: a theoretical average. I delight in some players not getting an average score, whether due to luck, expertise, or the fact that his opponent just gave up or went AWOL. That's called life. We can reduce the impact, yes, to some degree via Nabla, but no amount of mathematical models can normalize ALL of this behaviour to be completely fair theoretically and mathematically, to be honest.

Indeed, we have to look at the scenario if players don't have the same schedule, and might also have more then one winner if the tourney is huge in size.

It's the nature of 'war' to have some huge outlier results.

[dieseltaylor]

Tsk an average is no good. If half the Germans score 80% and half 20% that gives the average but ignores the extreme results. AFAIR with primarily tanks to kill a few lucky/unlucky hits the score could rack up ... or mot.

St. Nazaire I was very fortunate to sink quite a lot of assault boats where the attacker has no options. So depending which side I was on in each battle I could get better chances of getting a good score : )

I am not that worried as it was good fun.

I think after it ended we did have a very lengthy thread on the game:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=49623&highlight=Nabla+wet

so allowing for the fact that in CMBN most people will be relatively new the performance difference apart from beta-testers will be less then CMAK.

: )

[WineCape]

St. Nazaire I was very fortunate to sink quite a lot of assault boats where the attacker has no options. So depending which side I was on in each battle I could get better chances of getting a good score : )

"Dear soldier,

The High Command chooses your battles for you to fight on behalf of the Armed forces of this country. You sir, have the option of accepting the High Commands' call, or defer to the acting Commander-in-Chief if you feel civilian life is more enjoyable."

[[hirr]Leto]

I recall scenarios like Across Moltke Bridge has a lot of statistical variance due to the "puzzle" nature and inherent non-replayability.

That being said, how shall anything work in CMBN if there is not an adequate scoring system for us number crunchers?

I hope that gets fixed before we go to gold... or else there will be a real monkey wrench thrown into any attempt to revive ROW.

Cheers!

Leto

[ThomasZ]

a belated tx to WineCape. Read all the AAR's last night, while sipping some wine from the cape in your honor *Grin*

[WineCape]

Leto;1245390']That being said, how shall anything work in CMBN if there is not an adequate scoring system for us number crunchers?

I hope that gets fixed before we go to gold... or else there will be a real monkey wrench thrown into any attempt to revive ROW.

WRT Nabla scoring (and not the finalized CMBN scoring method by the way), No disrespect to you or anyone trying to fairly discuss the issue, or making vague assumptions on not any given math data provided:

Nothing needs fixing. Yet.

We will only fix, or attempt Nabla to modify his scoring method, if someone can mathematically prove there is something drastically wrong or completely unfair to the current Nabla scoring methodn given that your luck or unluck in playing a certain side is just that: Tough or good luck.

This is not the same as saying Nabla IS correct. It's saying bring mathematical prove. Afterall, it was part of Nabla PhD thesis, so if you can correct him, maybe you should then apply for the same degree

So until we have someone here that can spar with Nabla on this basis, i.e. with lotsa x's, y's and graphs proving that Nabla needs adjusting, the Nabla will not change for the oncoming ROW VI.

Obviously, we will have a look at the CMBN scoring method and see if we need to adapt Nabla to accommodate it.

[[hirr]Leto]

I have nothing against Nabla, my question was more focused on how do we incorporate the CMBN scoring system (which appears to be very different in intent, function and purpose than CMx1) so that it is similar to previous ROW tournaments.

I may be ignorant here, but it appears to me that there are no longer per centage based scoring outcomes in CMBN.

Cheers!

Leto

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I think Leto means that it's CMBNs scoring that might not be quite up to snuff.

While CMx2 has got many new options (that might trip up a tournament scoreline too) it is less adept at giving points for casualties.