A few comments on posting on the BFC message board.

[[hirr]Leto]

I think one needs to ask himself this question before he posts on these boards: "am I going to bitch, whine, complain, or ask leading questions to which a negative response will certainly be garnered?"

If the answer is yes, and you are still serious about making a negative comment, complaint or provide critical feedback, and you qualify yourself as a serious adult, then perhaps you may want to email the company representative instead of posting?

Look, no matter what anybody wishes to believe, these message boards are the property of BFC: it is not a democracy. Comments on whether Steve, Moon or anyone else is fudgint the system or making administrative decisions that you do not agree with is simply infantile rubbish: they have every right to do anything they want.

Furthermore, while you may believe as a gamer that you are entitled to a pound of flesh just because you bought one of their games, please realize that this is how they make their living: it's real live flesh and it hurts when it is savaged from the body. Do you think they want your negative crap thrust upon them and their community time and time again? Be happy that even the slightest semblance of friction presented here does not lead to outright bans. For some of the posts I've seen, I would support BFC guys going to your house and beating you with a pipe.

Ergo, these boards support critical functions of advertising, marketing, messaging, interaction between members of a community that enjoys the game and is working on finding ways of making it better. If you think BFC is clamping down on negativity, unconstructive feedback, or plain irritating posters, then guess what: put in their place you would probably do the same, and tough noogies to you if you think you are above such a statement of logical role reversal: I doubt anyone with a company being on the line, and whether or not you can buy your daughter a pony rests upon ensuring positive messaging of your products and your company.

Do you think the people on these boards are overly biased fanbois who jump on everyone who makes a negative comment? Well Jeez, Louise, guess what? There is a community of players that actually LIKE the game and if you don't like the game, and you want to post about it, then realize you will PROBABLY get push back. Now, while many of these people are admitted suckups and apocryphillic figureheads of BFC, wanting nothing but to spit venom upon non believer pagan troglodytes, the majority of them simply play the game, contribute to the game design, and have a little bit of investment in the company and the games they play. They are a community of like minds, not unlike a beehive (Yes, Steve, I am calling you a "Queen" and the rest "drones"... LMAO!! If anyone infers you wearing high heels and lipstick, it is simply their own wasteland of a mind at work... wait a sec... hmmm... scratch that last part... I guess that was my wasteland of a mind at work). So DON'T get all fretty when they tell you off. You probably deserve it.

Needless to say, but necessary all the more, these things should all be SELF EVIDENT. I am constantly amused by the sentiments posted here about how the world should work, and am constantly entertained by the people who live in worlds with purple skies interpret the actions of BFC and their legion of guard dogs (Reminds me a bit of Monty burns: "release the hounds"... lol) on these boards against metrics that simply do not have any substantial relevance here.

The guys who played CMx1 and do not care for CMx2 have mostly left these boards (in the hundreds and I stand by this as a fact being part of that very large community) and do not regard it as having any serious content of interest to them anymore. Perhaps this should be taken as an example of your own pathway if you have such critically absurd and Mansonian attitudes toward what the new games look and play like, how they are marketed, and the philosophy of BFC with regards to their business model. If BFC has replaced those hundreds with thousands as they would have you believe, is irrelevant: if you do not like the game, do not buy the game, do not condemn the game, and just go find a game that you like.

In conclusion: think before you post, and realize that your views are most likely going to be in the minority and not well recieved if they are beligerently composed toward any aspect of the game... even inane ones.

BTW, I am not a pro BFC guy, still play CM1 more than CM2, and have no interest in this but to inject myself in where I see the obvious being patently ignored time and time again, and the actions of BFC constantly questioned, if only as an oppositely biased voice of reason.

Cheers!

Leto

[Falconander]

Wow...having a bad day or something???

Not sure if you are on the same board or not but this place is pretty tame compared to most and most of what Steve and Moon have said in support of the game to the naysayers has been a pretty good tit for tat...

I'm surprised that no one has nailed you to the crucificial wall for being a Fan-Boy yet...

Love the game, the devs and beta testers.... hate the pedastal...

You can step down now....

[GSX]

Hmm, a forum where no negativity what so ever is allowed isnt a forum, its more of a company controlled bulletin board.

Its not a question of BFC can do what they want, for as stated, they can, but more of a 'what do BFC want from their forum'?

Thats how I see it anyway. I wouldnt lke to be banned for simply stating that I think the infantry model in the game detracts from realism, just becuase I think its true but BFC didnt want 'Joe Public' to think it did. But hey,at the end of the day its a BFC forum and theirs to do as they want with.

Apparently there may be 'changes' afoot for the Normandy game forum (as refered to by Steve a while back) that may, or may not make the current format look liberal.

Watever happens, its BF's baby and they can and will do as they please, but if nothing Ive always admired the way they allow for a good bit of negativity as long as its done positively (if this makes any sense).

[Falconander]

GSX,

Perfect sense....

I'd hate it if we all agreed all the time and the wazy BFC defends things makes you understand the underlying reasons why it is so.

Owning/playing hundreds of games i have never seen a baord where the devs and betatesters are so active.

I think Steve loves a good arguement and it has been a great passage of time seeing the banter back and forth.

I think everyone wants a good infantry rendition but the +/-s don's work to their favor right now. But we can still moan and complain about it and they know gamers are never going to be happy....

...in the end, they may even listen to us and throw us a bone once in awhile....

[Paper Tiger]

but if nothing Ive always admired the way they allow for a good bit of negativity as long as its done positively

Change that last word to respectfully and I'd agree with you . This is not the only forum I frequent but I'd have to say that this is one where I see the most disrespect displayed towards the game and/or the game designers themselves.

It is a fact that very few people have been banned from posting on these forums for making unreasonably negative posts since CMSF was released.

So which forum is the OP comparing the posting rules on this one to so unfavourably and unkindly? In what other forum run and paid for by the game company itself can you post as disrespectfully about their product or even about the designers themselves as you can here?

[Battlefront.com]

GSX,

Its not a question of BFC can do what they want, for as stated, they can, but more of a 'what do BFC want from their forum'?

Yup, and as you sate this is always a very delicate line to draw. Obviously if the Forums become a place where bitching, complaining, attacking others, etc. is the norm... then we're left with a place that no sane person would want to visit. The other extreme, where no critical commentary is allowed, isn't very good either. I'll put it out right now that an artificially positive Forum has far, far more value than one that has completely "gone to the dogs". But a Forum that has room for respectful disagreements and constructive criticism is the best of all possible results. That's what we shoot for.

Watever happens, its BF's baby and they can and will do as they please, but if nothing Ive always admired the way they allow for a good bit of negativity as long as its done positively (if this makes any sense).

Thanks, though I do suspect you meant "respectfully" or "constructive" since being positive about a negative is near impossible to do

I've said it since the Forum was created... this is an important tool for us as developers of the games you play. We never expect to get everything right, either conceptually or in execution. The game is so vastly complex, the subject matter broad, and the effort to make it come alive so difficult that perfection is an ideal which will never be obtained. Therefore, in order to make the most of our limited resources we need to know which features to focus our efforts on and, more importantly, how to improve them. Of course there are very often dozens of different, and differing, opinions on how to do that. Of course some ideas simply aren't practical. Of course some ideas are counter productive. Etc. However, through productive and respectful discussions we can make an informed decision about how the game changes over time.

But we can only do this if the discussion is a discussion. Rational, respectful, and above all constructive posts are the only way to have that. That doesn't mean we will always agree with each other (customer to customer or customer to developer), but if we all try to work towards the same common goals OVERALL everybody will be better off.

As Leto pointed out, at some point a poster can go too far in the wrong direction. If we give a warning about that it isn't to silence criticism, it is to redirect it to a form which works within the context of this Forum. In other words, reminding people there ARE RULES here and that everybody is expected to follow them. We've never banned someone because of their opinions, only their method of expressing them. And even then it's a handful of people over many years. Most customers have been very, very happy to see the majority of those kicked out of here. The new Forum for Normandy will expand upon that concept and allow the Forum more direct input on who should get the boot for refusing to behave themselves.

For the record... we heard the criticism about the British Module's physical goods. We've stated what we're going to do to address those criticisms, as well as explained some things which will not change and why they won't change. That's more than most companies would ever do, so we have a reasonable expectation that further criticism (not to mention abuse) adds nothing of value and should therefore cease. Not respecting that is a poor reflection upon the customer, not us. We can't help it if some people don't really want to be helped.

Steve

[hammelman]

I think compared to the initial launch of and subsequent first few patches of CMSF there has been hardly any griping about anything, really. The jewel case for the British Module was bad, Oh Noes! It's cheaper and more space efficient to get the direct download.

[ChrisND]

So which forum is the OP comparing the posting rules on this one to so unfavourably and unkindly? In what other forum run and paid for by the game company itself can you post as disrespectfully about their product or even about the designers themselves as you can here?

World of Warcraft forums. By a mile. Seriously, that forum is often a 24x7 disaster zone. :eek::eek::eek:

[Redwolf]

Is there a chance to lift the limit on how long you can edit your posts?

It seems a little unfair that BFC staff can come back and polish up their posts but members cannot.

I also observe that people come back to edit posts (on other boards) in an attempt to defuse some of the discussion.

If you want, you can use the vBulletin function that keeps the old version and allows people to see the diffs by clicking on the "edited post at ...", which is then a link.

[Lethaface]

Indeed I have seen forums that are far, far and FAR worse...

One bless is that there aren't millions of people interested in CM, so that the forum is actually maintainable by BF (Although the millions of $ for BF will obviously be welcomed by the receivers )

The bad thing about forums imo is that it is easy to lose your sense of sociality when you don't have to look your fellow discussers in the eyes.

People tend do behave a bit more respectful when in direct contact (face 2 face) with other people.

While it may be partially true that 'fanbois' are able to be a bit more rude then people who moan about the game, this is something that can't be avoided. Ofcourse BF doesn't wan't to ban 'fanbois' because they are sometimes a bit overreacting to criticism.

I guess here is where the fellow posters should give the helping hand to BF; if anyone on this forum misbehaves we should not lower ourselves to their level but instead point out their verbose is somewhat unconstructive and bad formed langauge.

However, I think that generally this already happens to quite some degree here, at least in the threads i read. Ofcourse there are less social blessed people in all ranks, so both among 'fanbois' (do I hate that word, sounds like a sissy beach boy with a fanta bottle and a straw riding the boulevard on rollerskates; "strawmen" ) and doomsayers.

I think one small question we should ask ourselves is enough:

"Do I want to be addressed in the way I address others in this post?"

If not; simply don't post or rephrase. If yes, don't complain if your treated on your on recipe.

Keep in mind that your fellow forum'ers might be people who haven't seen daylight for weeks and tend not to talk to any stranger apart from the girl at the local liquor store counter; they might have lost contact with reality a littlebit so they behave like the soldiers they read about in their grog books (apart from the fact that anyone can have a bad day).

Ofcourse it's dissapointing if anyone get's something he didn't expect, but well thats just life! Get over it, there are worse things in life.

Sometimes I am slightly amused about people acting like the world is doomed because of a small gripe here or there. If you can't deal with dissapointment then there are medicines for that. If everyone in the world would be so upset about minor dissapointments in life we would all be hooked on prozac.

Hell, how should I address the Government for stealing all my money legally disguised as 'taxes' ?. Now that's a MAJOR dissapointment; you get a EUR 500,- monthly raise only to find out 230 of them shiny euro's are witheld from your account by 'the grabbing hands'.

In the light of their reaction on this forum, some of us here would probably acquire an RPG to deliver their next tax payment, if a $10 dissapointment is such a big problem.

[Mad Mike]

Ofcourse it's dissapointing if anyone get's something he didn't expect, but well thats just life! Get over it, there are worse things in life.

Sometimes I am slightly amused about people acting like the world is doomed because of a small gripe here or there. If you can't deal with dissapointment then there are medicines for that. If everyone in the world would be so upset about minor dissapointments in life we would all be hooked on prozac.

Hell, how should I address the Government for stealing all my money legally disguised as 'taxes' ?. Now that's a MAJOR dissapointment; you get a EUR 500,- monthly raise only to find out 230 of them shiny euro's are witheld from your account by 'the grabbing hands'.

In the light of their reaction on this forum, some of us here would probably acquire an RPG to deliver their next tax payment, if a $10 dissapointment is such a big problem.

Like a wise man once said: "Nothing is certain but death and taxes."

Maybe not the best example for something to be really disappointed about...

An apparently promised but not delivered DVD case is clearly on a different level.

[Lethaface]

My post could indeed be considered naive, like I expected to get the full salary raise on my account. I wish I could be so innocent

However, the danger is in the things taken for granted. I will never take people stealing my hard earned money for granted. Even not in the form of sneaky tax collectors that know how to find my money before even I have received it (and demand a big portion of what I do receive!).

Ofc it is good for many things like education and healthcare; still it is nothing then a bunch of bush robbers that have started cooperating in some place, drawed borders, called it a 'nation state' and invent laws as why people have to give them their money so they can spend it, and do a little good with it as well. Hell they even invented democracy to let people believe they can rob others legally too if they got enough votes!!

Got carried away a little bit like others do here sometimes

Anyhow, it is good we can decide to give BF our money or invest it in yet another crate of beer. I bet the $25 in British guiness would be much quicker to finish, be much more unhealthy and required you to walk to the trash can much more often then the British Module, apart from toilet visits.

Perhaps the picture of the UK module was indeed misleading; BF has acknowledged it and excused for it. It is debatable how bad this really is, but imo they never intended to mislead anyone, which is the important part.

What can we expect them to do more? Ah, I know! They, including all beta testers, will collectively sit down on their knees in a circle of burned cd jewel cases, then swear on the bible, koran and thora that they will never do this again and post the video on the forum in HD quality?

I guess thats only the least they could do

Ah I have became a strawmen myself now, I guess its not that hard...

[Lethaface]

If I lived in India I would have made a business out of it. Produce fold-it-yourselfdvd boxes that can be send at 75ct delivery costs, marginal product costs will be around 1 whole cent and it seems they are worth a staggering $9,95! or even more

[Mad Mike]

Hi Lethaface,

I didn't really want to start a tax discussion (even though that's probably the all-time most favourite discussion topic over here in Germany).

Just this: Without the (more or less) willing support of all the tax payers around the world, the selection of military hardware, gadgets and paraphernalia to be simulated in this glorious game called CMSF would be rather slim.

There, that should let us sleep better ...

[BlackMoria]

Leto;1154738']I think one needs to ask himself this question before he posts on these boards: "am I going to bitch, whine, complain, or ask leading questions to which a negative response will certainly be garnered?"

If the answer is yes, and you are still serious about making a negative comment, complaint or provide critical feedback, and you qualify yourself as a serious adult, then perhaps you may want to email the company representative instead of posting? <snip>

Target Round.

If one has a complaint, the best avenue is to contact the company's customer support. Forums are the absolute worst place for a variety of reasons.

Companies pay a varying amount of time to their forums. Sure, some companies monitor their forums daily and have a tangible presence. But a greater number have little to no presence on their forum outside of a moderator and are the worst possible place to get any sort of customer support.

On top of that, you have all the well meaning people trying to be helpful by stating the obvious and giving questionably useful information in regards to your issue.

Then you have the people who think you are a whiner or bitcher and take it upon themselves to 'set you straight'.

Forums are for discussion, not complaining to the company. That is why companies have customer service departments. BF do maintain an active presence on their forums, thankfully. But it doesn't mean they want to deal with customer complaints on their forums. That is the role of their tech support.

All the recent angst resulting in this thread could have been avoid if the person with the cracked jewel case or the person who expected a DVD case took the issue up with BF directly via their customer service instead of trying to fix their problem on the forums.

Bottom line - don't fix customer service issues on discussion forums. It is the least productive way to fix a customer service complaint.

[[hirr]Leto]

BTW, my rant was not directed specifically at anyone, but some may have inferred that it was referencing the guy chewed with the diamond case DVD. There are a long line of forum personalities, both existing and deceased (banned) that I address my comments to in general.

Steve has pointed out on several occasions, as well as others here on these boards, that the way things are run around here really aren't that bad and actually quite good in relative terms... my point being, that if you feel otherwise, please do look at some of these other examples of wild west forums and their Forum Administrators (that range from completely psychotic, to extremely damaged and insecure control freaks to those who I think are even worse: those who pretend to be fair but are otherwise very agenda oriented).

My other point being, and I have to reinforce this again: you are out of your mind if you think negative criticism, and especially off base or doom saying criticism isn't going to be jumped on and made into a nice Bougolais by the majority of people here that are part of a community working to better the game.

While most people enjoy a bit of debate, some teasing and taunting and especially a few good arguments (me most of all I think), the approach you use is perhaps potentially more damning than the negative content you espouse.

And to show that these things are all a natural part of the message board world, I have to provide you with this really interesting website:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/

See if you can't find yourself in these classifications... I think they are absolutely hilarious, and I believe I have probably known at least one of each in my time (and been a few as well).

Cheers!

Leto

[Sgt Joch]

World of Warcraft forums. By a mile. Seriously, that forum is often a 24x7 disaster zone. :eek::eek::eek:

And that game is the most successful around, with something like 6-8,000,000 players paying $15-20 every month to play. Obviously, posters complaining has nothing to do with how successful a game is, but is an integral part of the forum dweller sub-culture.

[Sergei]

I don't know how it is fair or unfair, but it is quite inconvenient, sometimes. I think the reasoning is that it should be inconvenient, so that we think twice before posting something that we might regret (whether that works or not, well...). But it does prevent eg. updating FAQ threads.

[Lethaface]

Hehehe, I like 'Big Cat'

And Mad Mike, you have me there! Now I will happily go to the grocery store to pay 20% extra for the Leopard 2 Dutch edition in CMSF:Nato

[Pvt. Ryan]

Leto;1154984']Bougolais

Dude, there are French people reading this forum. Have some respect.

[Battlefront.com]

Redwolf,

It seems a little unfair that BFC staff can come back and polish up their posts but members cannot.

Hmmm... I thought you guys could edit/remove posts. Whatever the case is, I have a sort of 2 minute rule for my posts, in that if after I post I notice a problem I have 2 minute to correct it or I let it stand and post a follow up correction. I do not edit my posts beyond that unless it's an egregious error (like forgetting a "not" in a key sentence). I also do not change what I say, though I do edit/add to it to make the message more clear. Since there is always someone out there trying to read between the lines, it's pretty important I correct gaffs. Especially when I forget to put in a "no" or "not". I'm always screwing that one up!

When one of you becomes pretty much the sole spokesperson for all customers I'll be more than happy to grant you equal posting privileges

Steve

[ASL Veteran]

When one of you becomes pretty much the sole spokesperson for all customers I'll be more than happy to grant you equal posting privileges

Steve

It wouldn't be much of a forum if that were to happen .... just the two of you yapping away. You start a thread and the official customer spokesperson replies. I guess the Beta testers could still post though so it would be a lot like what I presume your beta tester forums are like now except with one extra person representing all customers. Nope, that wouldn't be much fun

[sfhand]

I've had one forum "mis-adventure" here. I wasn't complaining about the game but rather citing what I believed to be a flaw in the forum's administration. During this I did ignore one "stupid" comment from a fellow forumite - an ad hominem attack questioning my motives. But what matters most to me is that the people at BF are generally open-minded enough to consider what we have to say, and for that I am grateful.

[akd]

Redwolf,

Hmmm... I thought you guys could edit/remove posts. Whatever the case is, I have a sort of 2 minute rule for my posts, in that if after I post I notice a problem I have 2 minute to correct it or I let it stand and post a follow up correction. I do not edit my posts beyond that unless it's an egregious error (like forgetting a "not" in a key sentence). I also do not change what I say, though I do edit/add to it to make the message more clear. Since there is always someone out there trying to read between the lines, it's pretty important I correct gaffs. Especially when I forget to put in a "no" or "not". I'm always screwing that one up!

When one of you becomes pretty much the sole spokesperson for all customers I'll be more than happy to grant you equal posting privileges

Steve

I think we have 30 minutes before editing is locked out.

[MeatEtr]

Yeah I think there's a 2 min window to edit posts without getting the "edited by.." stamp. After that I think akd is correct, half hour to make edits then it's locked.